Seb Coe and the 5000m

sfsdf wrote:

Seb could run sub-13 if he had trained specifically for it. He is this type of athlete like Geb, El G, Auita, Morceli etc. Just good runners no matter of the distance.

Coe ran over 2 seconds faster at 800 meters than Aouita, Ovett, or Morceli. Had he run sub 13, and held world records between 800 meters and 5,000 meters, he would be BY FAR the most versatile track athlete ever. Certainly possible, but not a foregone conclusion. One can only wonder what kind of mindboggling times Seb would have run in the current era.

Dustin Hoffman wrote:

Coe never had the world record for 2000m, in fact he never was anywhere near it. Michel Jazy ran faster than the time you have just stated back in 1966, running 4mins 56.2 on sand. Also John Walker ran 4-51, but I am not sure of the date, I am guessing that it was in the 1970's when he was setting his world records.

Here's the sequence since '62:

5.01,6 Michel Jazy FRA 62/06/14 Paris

5.01,2 Jozef Odlozil TCH 65/09/08 Stara Boleslav

4.57,8 Harald Norpoth FRG 66/09/10 Hagen

4.56,2 Michel Jazy FRA 66/10/12 St. Maur

4.51,52 John Walker NZL 76/06/30 Oslo

4.51,39 Steve Cram GBR 85/08/04 Budapest

4.50,81 Said Aouita MOR 87/07/16 Paris

4.47,88 Noureddine Morceli ALG 95/07/03 Paris

rick reed johnson wrote:

No he did not. I don't believe he was too much under 14 minutes. He might not even have run faster than 14 minutes.

His 5k was equal to a, say.......Ryan Bak

Ha Ha Ha that post was funny. Comparing a very talented up and coming 5km runner to the double Olympic 1500m champion. Coe would be positively bored running 64's, baring in mind his 1500m / mile time.

Don't forget Coe ran four quality 800m races and then ran 3.32(?) in his seventh race - unpacemaked! I'd love to see El G put together that series of races!!!

Coe had simply awesome strength and could put together masses of hard training. IF he had wanted to he could have posted a very fast time over 5km. The difference was though he felt he could be more competitive over 1500m in a racing situation.

MarathonMind wrote:

To put things in perspective, the current record of 4:44.79 by ElG (who else?) is all the more impressive when you note that he brought it down a whole 3 seconds under Morceli's 1995 mark.

Do you know who rabbited Morceli to that WR?

I'm perhaps Coe's biggest supporter on this board, but even I would have to balk at the idea that, even with a sub-13 5,000, he would be "BY FAR the most versatile track athlete ever" as you suggest.

Haile Gebrselassie has run 3:31 for the 1,500 metres (indoors) and 2:06:35 for the Marathon - a range that's simply streets better than anyone else, male or female.

In between those distances, he's set more than a couple of world records at 5,000 and 10,000 metres and won golds at all of the major championships.

Geb's not my favourite athlete, but the case for him being the most versatile is extremely solid.

Martin

Martin-x wrote:

Geb's not my favourite athlete, but the case for him being the most versatile is extremely solid.

There's a whole other thread on this - I think you can make a strong argument that Geb is the most versatile ever but it's hardly solid (at least to me). I'm with Aouita - adding the 800 is a much bigger jump than the 5/10/marathon where many runners capable of a top notch 5 are also capable of a top 10 and marathon. Coe is an example of how hard it is to be a top 800 and 5000 guy, yet Aouita did it. I'd say Geb is the best ever, just not the most versatile.

For my money, Aouita is out of the "most versatile" stakes for two reasons: his ducking of Coe/Cram/Ovett at the LA 1,500 in 84 and his poor record at major championships altogether.

Add to that the fact that I don't think an 800 metre to 10,000 metre range is any more impressive than a 1,500 metre to marathon range.

This is especially true given that the "back-end" best for Aoutia is a 27:26.11 while the "back-end" for Geb is a 3:31.76 - itself only a step or two behind Aouita's all time best of 3:29.46.

Put another way, Geb's best 1,500 is just 1.125% slower than Aouita's best 1,500. By contrast, Aouita's best 10,000 is 4% slower than Geb's best 10,000.

Martin

So, using your logic, Maurice Green would be positively bored running 24 second 200 metre splits, he could easily run 800m in under 1min 40 secs and he would shatter the mile world record. He may not be too shabby at 5k either.

5K and 1500m are different distances, a world class 1500m runner will not by default be a world class 5000m runner and vice versa. As someone said earlier in this thread, there is absolutely no evidence from Coe's career that he could ever have ran a world class 5000m. All we have is "if" he had decided to train for 5000m he would have run such and such time and he would have won such and such championship races.

As we know, with enough "if's" and "buts" you can put Paris into a bottle.

Un gamin d'Paris

M'a dit à l'oreille

Si je pars d'ici

Sachez que la veille

J'aurai réussi

A mettre Paris en bouteille.

Martin

Fact is Martin loves Coes Tory ass and won't have a word said against him, theer are numerous reasons why others can be regarded as more versatile. El Guerrouj could in my opinion run sub 27 for 10k and more importantly has won major title after major title. Surely consistency has to come into the equation, where was Coe in 82, 83, 85, 87, 88, after 84 he was pretty much done, ok he did ok at europeans in 86 but generally his career lasted 6/7 years at the very top. Ovett on the other hand was at the top for 10 years, similarly Cram was around a long time, but in terms of year in year out top level running Geb, and El g are way out in front.

Its stupid to argue that Geb was a good 1500 runner, ok he ran one fast time, but taht does not make him a great 1500 runner. In terms of Championship performances, the real judge of any athlete, Aouita has Olympic medals at 800 and 5k, nobody else has.

I'm the one aguing that Geb's case is stronger than Coe's you daft twat, not the other way around.

If Coe was "done" after '84, where was Ovett after '83, when he Ovett's ran his last race of any quality in Koblenz. Are you telling me Ovett was "on top" in 1973 -- or even 1976 when he was pounded in Montreal?

Surely you're not going to argue that a Commonweath gold in the freezing Scottish weather in 1985 is evidence of him being "on top"? (But then, given your chosen screen name - Waz - I won't be surprised if you do).

And ... I think the stupidity lies with those who think a 3:31 indoor 1,500 isn't evidence of being "good".

Aouita ducked the big names in both 84 and 88 to pick up cheap medals - and he and everyone in the Athletics world knows it.

Martin

Aouita had planned to double in 88 I thought but was injured.

But I agree in 1984 he saw his chances were better in the 5000, especially after running 13:04.

But Coe did his share of ducking people also. Mainly Aouita in Zurich after the 84 games when he demanded seperate races for the two.

Coe did his share of ducking and diving, to be sure, (Zurich was indeed bad form) but never in the major championships.

Martin

Aouita wanted to pick up cheap medals in 88? Sorry, but this really is one of the most stuped comments I ever read. The absolutely contrary is true.

Martin-x wrote:

Coe did his share of ducking and diving, to be sure, (Zurich was indeed bad form) but never in the major championships.

Martin

True. Coe ran the big ones, even when not in top form. He could have stayed away from Cruz and the rest in the '84 800, he knew he was not at his best form for that distance going in. Aouita would never do that. Similarly, I've always doubted Geb's excuses for not doubling in the Olys etc. The track is too hard... etc. I think he was worried about being outkicked in a tactical race. Very tough, great runner, but he did some ducking of his own. Ovett did so, never Walker. But these guys never avoided their rivals in the big ones. I remember Walker's idiot decision to run the 5k in '84 (I was in the stands, btw) because he thought it would be a tactical race. Next thing you know, Aouita, Ryffel, the Portuguese and Kenyans set off at record pace. (Why are the Europeans today slower than the guys in that race 22 years ago - could there be some mental barriers at work?) Very fast race with Walker getting dusted.

Aouita had incredible range, sub 1:44, and low 27's - he probably could have busted 27 in the right race. But he and Coe have similar PRs at the 1500, with Coe's PR at that distance coming well after his prime. In his prime, he was better than Aouita at the 1500/mile, and in a different league in the 800. He also ran in the days before rabbitted races twice a week came along. Part of what you see today is guys in the groove of cranking out fast splits behind pacesetters every single race. Yes, the guys way back when had rabbits here and there, but not every single race, week in week out. El G had to learn to race before the '04 games, and he did well. Before that, all he could do was tuck in and then hit the pedal with 400 - 600 to go.

I find it hard to compare the runners from pre 1990 to what's going on now, and political correctness aside, drugs and politics have a lot to do with it. The hordes of runners crossing the finish line and, winning or not, looking un-distressed is a major tip-off.

I doubt we've seen a clean middle or long distance record in the last 13 years or so, maybe a couple of years longer. Certainly it's been decades in the sprints.

13 years? take a stab right around the time when a certain kiwi came to the forefront over the 1500m...you are naive if you believe otherwise....

Geb won the 1500 at world indoor champs...

You went back to a thread that's been dead for almost a year and a half just to tell someone that his comment was "stuped"??? Sheesh!

The topic of the thread is, however, pretty interesting. I remember Seb commenting that, after he had his medals in the middle distances, he was considering a move to the Olympic 10,000, bypassing the 5,000 entirely. I wasn't sure whether he was serious, but there certainly have been some world-class milers who figured that they could move up effortlessly and blow away their slow-footed distance bethren.

UK Boy wrote:

rick reed johnson wrote:

No he did not. I don't believe he was too much under 14 minutes. He might not even have run faster than 14 minutes.

His 5k was equal to a, say.......Ryan Bak

Ha Ha Ha that post was funny. Comparing a very talented up and coming 5km runner to the double Olympic 1500m champion. Coe would be positively bored running 64's, baring in mind his 1500m / mile time.

Don't forget Coe ran four quality 800m races and then ran 3.32(?) in his seventh race - unpacemaked! I'd love to see El G put together that series of races!!!

Coe had simply awesome strength and could put together masses of hard training. IF he had wanted to he could have posted a very fast time over 5km. The difference was though he felt he could be more competitive over 1500m in a racing situation.

Anybody on this threat actually run against Coe?

Thought not.

During his career, he came to live in London and joined a London club.

Representing them on a few occasions in 3 mile road relay legs (remember the ‘Valley’ and the Southern 12 stage at Wimbledon) we were amazed that the world record holder at 800 and 1500 gold medallist, not only didn’t run the fastest leg - he was beaten by club runners who’s names nobody would have ever heard of these days.

We came to the conclusion that Coe was a natural 800-1500 runner and just didn’t have that necessary stamina for the longer distances. 14.07 5000 sounds about right, comparing the relay leg times.