When you start to struggle why don’t you just jog for 2-3 minutes and then get back at it. Better to do 2*4 miles at the right effort/stimulus than 4 miles + 2 mile red line then cut it short.
When you start to struggle why don’t you just jog for 2-3 minutes and then get back at it. Better to do 2*4 miles at the right effort/stimulus than 4 miles + 2 mile red line then cut it short.
Tempos should be done by feel not pace.
Death to GPS watches wrote:
Tempos should be done by feel not pace.
No they shouldn't.
this just in wrote:
Death to GPS watches wrote:
Tempos should be done by feel not pace.
No they shouldn't.
Yes they should.
Get a heart rate monitor and keep it in the zone dog.
80-90% is a wide range for tempo running. For marathon training I would keep it closer to 80%.
I think too many people time trial their tempos.
Tempos should be effort based. better to be a little conservative than go to the well. Tempos are definitely mental. I personally struggle the most between about 12-20 minutes of a tempo because of that "comfortably hard" feeling. Comfortably hard to put into actual human terms means uncomfortable. You're going to feel discomfort. Once you stop feeling sorry for yourself, you'll really get over that hump and start feeling a better as it goes on.
Marathon training is like digesting your own legs so chances are you're gonna have heavy legs going into some of your tempos. So you need to trust yourself and trust that you can get it done. If you need to start off a bit simpler, take the advice that someone stated earlier. Try 2 x 3 miles at MP with a mile jog in between. Once that feels tolerable and done in good quality, go 2 mile, jog a mile, 4 mile. And So on. Good luck!
Chris60 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, Sage! I'm sure the Hanson's elite program has much more variety than the standardized plan from Luke's book, and I am curious about some of those workouts you mentioned.
I've also started listening to Luke's podcast and he has a couple of episodes where he discusses the tempo runs and their relative difficulty. After hearing the feedback here, and hearing Luke talk about them, I think I'm feeling much more comfortable about where I'm at in the program. I'm going to keep trusting the process!
I worked with Luke in 2018 to build a custom plan. You basically pick your time frame, fill out a questionnaire about your history, abilities, tendencies, strengths, weaknesses, and your ultimate goal... He will write you up a custom plan. In my opinion, after using the Advanced Plan in the book 3 times, the custom plan was light years ahead of it and helped me get a 10 minute PR on my 10th marathon (generally was only getting 3-5 minute PR before then on the last few).
Key differences is his plan for me built up to 80mpw (i think the book caps at 58ish) and the long runs were 20 miles and not 16 like the book prescribes. He also alternated different types of MP runs (2x5mi, for example).
Hansons is just crap! Forget about them.
I have used Hansons for five marathons now. The tempos felt very difficult the first four times. You are always running on tired legs with this program. It seems impossible that you could hold that tempo speed for entire marathon while you are doing them.
And yet, on race day, without fail somehow you are able to run tempo for the entire race! It feels like a miracle. Just make sure you stick to tempo pace like a machine from the start and do not go too fast because it will feel too easy. Have faith in the program.
After the marathon when I am struggling to run easy pace when I resume training, I always say, "I can't believe I ran that tempo pace for so long when I only ran 10 miles in training at tempo!"
This is because you didn't run a tempo run. A tempo run may mean many different things to many people, but one thing it certainly is not is a pace that can be sustained for 26+ miles and/or 3+ hours.
Change to the magic JS and you start to come close to your very best capacity.
To you pedants whose butts are puckered tighter than a snare drum about what is and isn't a tempo run, read the book. It explains why Hanson's equates the tempo pace and marathon pace and isn't not a difficult concept. Well, maybe it is for most of the unibrowed snagletooths that populate letsrun.
Is not a difficult concept. Just like avoiding double negatives.
Marathon pace is overrated and an arbitrary pace physiologically. I would suggested running Marathon pace + 20-40 seconds per mile for your Long “tempos.” You get the same tempo benefits but are able to extend the run without pressing as hard.
Actually you can do occasional long runs at this pace. Say your goal marathon pace is 7:20 than run an 18 miler at 7:40-8:00.
Your other workout in a week could be a Lactate Threshold. Like 10 x 3 minutes at 15k pace with 1 minute rest or 3 x 10 minutes at half marathon pace with 2 minute rest.
Only occasionally run at marathon pace just so that you have a feel for it. Maybe the last three miles of a long run. Three miles isn’t much but combined with the long run will give you that glycogen depletion feel. Another easier mental approach is to jump in a local 15k to half race but run it at marathon pace. Being around others racing will make your subdued pace feel easier.
AP5000 wrote:
This is because you didn't run a tempo run. A tempo run may mean many different things to many people, but one thing it certainly is not is a pace that can be sustained for 26+ miles and/or 3+ hours.
Methinks you have not read the Hansons Marathon Method book. Tempo refers to a specific pace, namely marathon pace. So by definition, you should be able to hold tempo/marathon pace for the duration of a marathon. I refer you back to the original post as to what is being asked here and what tempo means. The term "tempo" is used in reference to the Hansons method.
Also... According to Hansons, the "tempo" run is used specifically to train you to know what marathon pace feels like so you can hit that exact pace during the marathon. Every run in the schedule has a specific purpose. Running it too quickly defeats the purpose of the run.
The purpose of the tempo run is to practise marathon pace.
Sheesh.
Yeah, definitely gonna read a book that can't even get the concept of a tempo run correct. Not sure if they were too lazy to create a term for their intended pace and just said " a tempo" that what we'll call it.
AP5000 wrote:
Yeah, definitely gonna read a book that can't even get the concept of a tempo run correct. Not sure if they were too lazy to create a term for their intended pace and just said " a tempo" that what we'll call it.
True definition of tempo is speed, any speed.
"rate of motion or activity : PACE"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempoJack Daniels doesn't own the word tempo.
Get serious. Going to the dictionary definition is a classic amateur move. And Jack Daniels doesn't use the term "tempo" for a pace. He uses I, T, M, etc., with T (threshold) being of the closed proximity to a tempo run in the classic (not some dictionary definition) sense.
AP5000 wrote:
Get serious. Going to the dictionary definition is a classic amateur move. And Jack Daniels doesn't use the term "tempo" for a pace. He uses I, T, M, etc., with T (threshold) being of the closed proximity to a tempo run in the classic (not some dictionary definition) sense.
Sorry, Daniels isn't God. Tempo means pace, and that could be any pace. Meb tempo runs were done at . . . . . guess what pace? Not jack daniels definition, but about his marathon pace. Usually about 5 minute miles.