I see it as applying the logic of doubles to workouts. If you do doubles you can do more mileage without being as strained. They use it to do more volume of threshold without being as strained. If you can do two 4 miles runs and be as strained as one 6 mile run, it's logical you could do 2x 30 minutes of threshold and be as strained as one session with 40 minutes of threshold.
????why? wrote:
Is this not drastically different from what most pros are doing?
Yeah I don't think most pro's are doing 25 miles a week at 4:35 pace. Did you think they were?
their real secret.
https://sputniknews.com/sport/201610141046332640-norway-doping-skiing/
I think Kipchoge nearly did it once, pretty sure it was called breaking 2
a canuck wrote:
In an article entitled “Three Norwegian brothers all European 1500 m champions: What is the secret?” in the International Journal of Sports Science and Coaching, Tjelta concludes that “an active childhood, a gradual progression in training volume, strong family support, mental toughness, a high volume of training at and above anaerobic threshold, and mindful monitoring and regulation of training intensity have brought these brothers to a top international level in distance running.” The brothers train hard and smart, their weekly mileage averaging 140K to 160K with 23 to 25 per cent at or above anaerobic threshold pace, and they seem mostly to avoid injury.
https://runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/team-ingebrigtsens-formula-for-success/
I thought it was genetics???
zxcvzcvx wrote:
From what I recall, twice a week, they will do two workouts totaling 51 minutes of the form of one 3x10 minute or 5x6 minute in the morning (rest of 90 seconds?) and one 7x3 minute (rest 60 seconds) in the afternoon or evening, at 1 hr pace, which at least for Jakob is approximately half marathon pace or 13.1M=21.1 km, 4:34/mile, 68.5/400m, 2:47/k.
I figured this at 18 km per day at 1 hr pace (for 51 minutes)x2=36 k.
Then there is a hill session on Saturdays of maybe 2k for 10x200m hills. The track session might be something like 10x300m at 1500m race pace right before Monaco or championships. If you add strides a few times a week, all this might total 3k-6k.
That would give you 42k at 1 hr pace or faster per week, which is a lot, 26.2 miles.
Conventional workout mileage might give you less. Two workouts per week with track repeats totaling 8k-10k (e.g. 5-6x1600 or 10x800 or 8-10x1k) on one day, shorter repeats of 12-20x200-400=up to 8k, plus strides of a few k.
That would give you maybe 21k per week. Even with a 4-6 mile tempo run for a third workout, you're still under 31k per week at threshold or faster but here the workout paces are typically much faster.
There was a schedule of their training on a danish website some time ago. The gist of it is that they keep mileage honest but not over the top during base and that they do a lot of "Tinman" style workouts a little bit faster than threshold (but not too much) and with short recoveries...
Heads are going to explode around here....
I’d love to know how they change this for competition. I’ve read Jakob saying they do “a lot of 5k pace”.
It would be interesting to see how long they do this for and what kind of workouts to prepare for the event.
Apparently he left out that key to the success is the cocktail they take. They obviously messed up with the oldest one, with him being on the fancy bears list, and then learned from that how to better do it.
So, what do we now know after reading the original article and all the posts following? That the brothers do work hard, (that's a surprise!), and that their training includes all the ingredients that 99% of other world class runners also include in their training. Another big surprise!
Trevelyan Harper wrote:
I’d love to know how they change this for competition. I’ve read Jakob saying they do “a lot of 5k pace”.
It would be interesting to see how long they do this for and what kind of workouts to prepare for the event.
As of 31th of july Jakob had not exceeded 5.5 mmol/L lactate in training all year.
They finetune in these weeks now, especially for Doha, but have also tapered for the DLfinal tonight.
How on Earth do you have any idea about that specific information?
huh what now wrote:
How on Earth do you have any idea about that specific information?
Maybe he read it on a website or something?
Jacob was different from most when he was as young as 11 years old. No parent will hand over a coctail mixture to a little kid. That includes Gjert. Pathetic accusations. Is it really that hard to give a talent of the century the benefit of the doubt and just appreciate the extreme performance considering he is from a country that takes anti-doping extremely serious?
www.ntnu.no/documents/6409319/4e48b7f3-cdfb-4c8a-b192-2115b06385cc
How is this different from the way Mary Decker trained as a young teenager? How is this any different from the way Mary Cain trained as a teenager? How is this any different from the way Galen Rupp trained as a teenager? No need for all the hype. 2019 World Championships T&F are only a few weeks away.
milermb wrote:
So, what do we now know after reading the original article and all the posts following? That the brothers do work hard, (that's a surprise!), and that their training includes all the ingredients that 99% of other world class runners also include in their training. Another big surprise!
yeah but how you mix it all together varies. Doing 2 threshold workouts in 1 day is sort of interesting and i can see how doing that might allow you to squeeze in some more work. Think of it as a variation on the daniels 2 hard days in a row. My big take away is that we did our quality work too fast in the 90s. Instead of all those 8x800 @ 5k pace we would have been better off trying for more volume at 10k-hm pace so that instead of getting in 20 mins of quality work, we could have done 30-40. Obvioulsy you want the harder stuff occassionally but every week might have been excessive.
Trevelyan Harper wrote:
I’d love to know how they change this for competition. I’ve read Jakob saying they do “a lot of 5k pace”.
It would be interesting to see how long they do this for and what kind of workouts to prepare for the event.
The question of when they do "5K pace" work keeps getting brought up.
It's important to note that threshold is not a "pace" but an effort. That effort makes the pace variable based on the distance of the effort. A 30 minute stretch at "threshold" might be 4:40-50/mi for these guys while a set of 1 minute efforts with 30 second rests might get down to 5K pace. Both of these efforts are "threshold" but the paces vary to achieve that effort.
This is specified in the academic paper this article uses as a reference.
"The runners in the present
study do repetitions over distances from 2000 m to
3000 m at this pace. However, when these runners do
repetitions over distances from 1000 m to 400 m with
lactate and heart rate in zone 2 (Table 2) they run at
paces between 10,000 m and 5000 m race. The volume
of a zone 2 session is between 8 and 12 km"
dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:
milermb wrote:
So, what do we now know after reading the original article and all the posts following? That the brothers do work hard, (that's a surprise!), and that their training includes all the ingredients that 99% of other world class runners also include in their training. Another big surprise!
yeah but how you mix it all together varies. Doing 2 threshold workouts in 1 day is sort of interesting and i can see how doing that might allow you to squeeze in some more work. Think of it as a variation on the daniels 2 hard days in a row. My big take away is that we did our quality work too fast in the 90s. Instead of all those 8x800 @ 5k pace we would have been better off trying for more volume at 10k-hm pace so that instead of getting in 20 mins of quality work, we could have done 30-40. Obvioulsy you want the harder stuff occassionally but every week might have been excessive.
Terrible idea to copy it as almost anyone, elite and non-elite. The Ingebrigtsen's have around the highest VO2MAX values in the world, allowing them to absorb and recovery very quickly from intense training.
Put the average HS or college kid on their program, and I guarantee you they either burn-out or get injured very quickly, EVEN if you adjust the threshold paces to their level!
A easy 30-40 min double and a threshold workout on one day, perfect. Two threshold workouts with high volume - rather not, unless you got your VO2MAX in the mid-high 80's and can run 13:15 or faster in a 5k.
Working Stiff wrote:
It's important to note that threshold is not a "pace" but an effort. That effort makes the pace variable based on the distance of the effort. A 30 minute stretch at "threshold" might be 4:40-50/mi for these guys while a set of 1 minute efforts with 30 second rests might get down to 5K pace. Both of these efforts are "threshold" but the paces vary to achieve that effort.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I want to be sure I understand this.
Isn't threshold pace the same, the difference being that split into shorter efforts, and with very short recoveries, that just allows the athlete to run at LT pace for a longer distance?
Threshold has nothing to do with effort. It is the point at which your lactate levels rise exponentially. The only reason you can do a threshold workout at faster than threshold pace is because the bouts are short enough and rest long enough that you don't accumulate lactate exponentially.
Here is a good explanation:
https://hvmn.com/blog/training/lactate-threshold-is-misunderstood
treyry32452 wrote:
Working Stiff wrote:
It's important to note that threshold is not a "pace" but an effort. That effort makes the pace variable based on the distance of the effort. A 30 minute stretch at "threshold" might be 4:40-50/mi for these guys while a set of 1 minute efforts with 30 second rests might get down to 5K pace. Both of these efforts are "threshold" but the paces vary to achieve that effort.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I want to be sure I understand this.
Isn't threshold pace the same, the difference being that split into shorter efforts, and with very short recoveries, that just allows the athlete to run at LT pace for a longer distance?
If you're going by the Daniels method or something similar the answer would be yes, threshold pace is the same whatever the length of the effort. In this case the Ingebrigstens use actual lactate measurements. By their own word the paces change based on the length of the effort.
You can test this yourself by going out and doing these workouts strictly by effort without looking at paces via watch. Running a 30 minute stretch at the same effort as 1 minute reps with 30 second rests will give you different paces. I do both of those workouts fairly regularly and 1 minute reps will get down to 5K pace and sometimes faster but feel around the same effort as that 30 minute rep at maybe half marathon pace or sometimes slower.