LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Cain was completely overworked and overraced at young age, she set her expectations incredibly high for herself and when she stopped winning and stomping every race everyone was questioning her, and she thought to herself "why am I not good anymore?
I don't know if this is true, though.
Cain didn't seem to be training much harder (initially) than her peers, just that she was far more talented. It wasn't until she went pro that she began to do higher mileage.
800 dude wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Salazar surely increased her mileage when she started working with him roughly a year ago, but I doubt she is doing super high mileage now.
To the extent that you can draw training conclusions from third hand reports about a single athlete's training, this is suspect. One could easily draw the conclusion that it's the mileage that's taking her to the next level, since she was already doing a lot of work on her speed.
Yes, I agree that this is what took KoKo to the next level (increased mileage, and training with NOP and her new coach). What I wanted to say is that she has been doing low mileage through her entire middle-and high-school career, as well as when she was 20. Only in the last 1 year she went above 50-55 mpw. So KoKo was able to constantly progress, without ever burning out and without getting injured (apart from ONE single runner's knee injury). By keeping her mileage low, her coaches were making it incredibly easy for someone like NOP to take her to the next level. She had so much room for advancement.
Mary Cain already trained super hard, especially in intensity when she was young. KoKo couldn't even train as hard as Cain did, since she didn't have the speed. I remember when Salazar proudly presented the 10x200 in 27.1 avg session at 5000ft altitude Cain did, but it's exactly sessions like this that cause a lot of mental and physical fatigue and really fry a runner if done week after week. 27s is her all-out 400m speed! Maybe he can do these sessions with Rupp and Farah but for Cain it was neither the right time nor moment in her training to do them.
Another thing he did with her was after her HS 15:45 record he would keep her on the track and do 2x400 in 59 and 57, both faster than her all-out 800m pace. She just ran all-out her fastest 5k ever! This was a 17-year old girl and he did the same that he would do with Rupp with her. That's insane.
Salazar is a great coach for world-class elite runners who can handle his intensity but for a young HS talent it was just way too much. I'd rather have Cain given to a cautious coach like Tinman or similar, or let her develop in a college than send her to rigorous professional training at age of 16/17.
Klosterhalfen is usually vague in interviews but now she had to give a little more information because with two NRs within 5 weeks and her joining NOP the commentaries were rife with doping allusions. From what I understand she said that mileage had not increased (or not very much) compared to her last training in Germany but the workouts were considerably more intense and there was also more stress on recovery, physio etc. (Still fairly vague...)
To me it also seems that they have increased weightlifting and core/upper body stability. Compared to 2017 she is as thin, but slightly more muscular (so she is apparently not losing muscle by not eating enough) and the running posture has improved (although in this last respect there had already been improvement from 2016 to 2017).
Klosterhalfen's elitism is fueled by her eating disorder, not PEDs.
Lanugo anyone?
https://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1455378-860_poster_16x9-cyah-1455378.jpg
Here is the truth wrote:
Klosterhalfen's elitism is fueled by her eating disorder, not PEDs.
Lanugo anyone?
https://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1455378-860_poster_16x9-cyah-1455378.jpg
The only one with a disorder is you. Let it go psychopath. Every thread on this woman and you get on here and talk about lanugo. A woman can have hair on her arms you idiot.
She may well be stronger without adding muscle, because when you're doing a lot of mileage it is very hard to add muscle mass but weight work will still make you functionally stronger, which I am sure she is.
Mary Cain ran 1:59.51 and 4:04 at barely 17. She had already run a 55 400m. She had not trained very intensely prior to Salazar, and Salazar himself said that he was amazed by how fast she could run in races considering the paces she ran in practice--in other words, she was not running race pace intervals. However, when she went to join Salazar, she was unhappy and clearly was doing faster pace work. She showed signs of unhappiness with running. I recall when instead of running a major meet she went to her prom and the only major race they had was the world junior 3k--Salazar notably did not have her run against Kipyegon in the 1500m. She was happier training with the Aussie from NYAC than Salazar but she just did not have the love for the sport in its highest competitive phase. She would have been much better off, given her extraordinary talent, in never working with Salazar until after college, if at all, but just going to college and training with teammates her age. She ran the 15:45 5000m just fast enough to get the qualifier; it was more like a tempo to her. There is a reason Salazar said she might go 3:55 or better someday. She had all the talent in the world and all the speed to close races for medals at the world level but she did not have the love for that kind of hard core training. No wonder really, because Salazar would stress out just about any normal teenager.
As for the German system being good at bringing runners along, that is a joke. There have been almost no quality distance runners from Germany other than Klosterhalfen in many years and in those years drug programs were dominant in both East and West.
The only previous quality German middle to distance runners I can think of were suspect: Irina Mikitenko (represented Kazakhstan before Germany), Dieter Baumann (EPO), and Nils Schumann.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/4771735/The-Drugs-Issue-Baumann-to-fight-all-the-way.html
KK is anorexic. Cain is not.
For an American to be successful, with rare exceptions, they need to compete in the NCAA or NAIA. Its just the way our society is structured that most athletes need a college education and schooling from age 18-22 to mature, before they go on to careers, whether in sports or not.
Here is the truth wrote:
Klosterhalfen's elitism is fueled by her eating disorder, not PEDs.
Lanugo anyone?
https://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1455378-860_poster_16x9-cyah-1455378.jpg
If you had a brain at all, you would know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to perform at the level she does without adequate nutrition. I'ts shocking how little people know about eating disorders and the effect they have on performance. Konstanze consumes on average, 3500 -5000 calories per day depending on her load.
Please don't bother asking for a source either, you may choose to either believe it, or not, that's 100% up to you.
KOKO NOP wrote:
If you had a brain at all, you would know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to perform at the level she does without adequate nutrition.
Ahem, no.
Wow, so she's anorecksick? Imagine what she could do in a healthy body?!?!? Wow, so she's the greatest, most talented human that has ever lived??
Armstronglivs wrote:
Armstronglies wrote:
Klojo?
Still making sh!t up eh?
You do know that according to WADA and other anti-doping investigators that the black market in doping is over a billion Euros annually? (which suggests that the greater proportion of doping transactions are in Europe. Like Germany. ) Also that most doping can't be caught, as it is estimated there are at least a hundred undetectable drugs put there. You also know that athletics has been identified as one of the worst offenders? (All this also courtesy of Al Jazeera.) How likely is it that the losers and tailenders in the field are the only ones doping, and not the winners? If someone is running like they are on rocket fuel (without fear of being caught), they likely are. Really, with so much at stake career-wise, why wouldn't they be?
She trains in Portland.
Ahem, no. wrote:
KOKO NOP wrote:
If you had a brain at all, you would know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to perform at the level she does without adequate nutrition.
Ahem, no.
Real answer is mixture of both. Longer term, over 3-5 years, being thin always catches up with injuries or burnout or other issues.
Short term...yea sometimes people run really fast before the lack of nutrition really takes its toll.
LM wrote:
Ahem, no. wrote:
Ahem, no.
Real answer is mixture of both. Longer term, over 3-5 years, being thin always catches up with injuries or burnout or other issues.
Short term...yea sometimes people run really fast before the lack of nutrition really takes its toll.
Exactly right. She is targeting the 2020 Olympics, and is a "late" bloomer. After those games hopefully she gets healthier, and accepts not being quite as fast.
Ahem, no. wrote:
LM wrote:
Real answer is mixture of both. Longer term, over 3-5 years, being thin always catches up with injuries or burnout or other issues.
Short term...yea sometimes people run really fast before the lack of nutrition really takes its toll.
Exactly right. She is targeting the 2020 Olympics, and is a "late" bloomer. After those games hopefully she gets healthier, and accepts not being quite as fast.
Apparently she's frail and weak according to some medical experts here. Seems to me she'll get better and truly conquer the running world. I see the gold in the 5000 & 10000 in Tokyo, and then gold in 5000, 10000, & marathon in the next Olympics. I figure at least 3 world records coming. As soon as she recovers from her weakness and frailty.
LM wrote:
Ahem, no. wrote:
Ahem, no.
Real answer is mixture of both. Longer term, over 3-5 years, being thin always catches up with injuries or burnout or other issues.
Short term...yea sometimes people run really fast before the lack of nutrition really takes its toll.
If her body was not getting nutrition, she would crash in a 5K at 4:38 Pace. This isn't an issues of long term or short term effect, the issue is about immediate effect. She may be able to run a slow 5K, or even a decent 5K, but there is zero chance she could maintain that pace without being properly trained or properly fueled.
Anorexia doesn't just mean someone is underweight, it's obvious KoKo is under average weight, this however, has nothing to do with how much she eats or if she has a mental disorder called anorexia. She does not. As a NOP athlete, I can assure you that she has had a CBC and had her albumin, prealbumin, transferrin, and retinol-binding protein tested. She's had bone density tests, low hemoglobin and hematocrit tests, low mean cellular volume and low ferritin tests, low serum iron, total iron-binding capacity and low iron saturation tests along with many others. She is fine.
A bunch of men sitting around critiquing a woman's body is pretty creepy.
Except wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You do know that according to WADA and other anti-doping investigators that the black market in doping is over a billion Euros annually? (which suggests that the greater proportion of doping transactions are in Europe. Like Germany. ) Also that most doping can't be caught, as it is estimated there are at least a hundred undetectable drugs put there. You also know that athletics has been identified as one of the worst offenders? (All this also courtesy of Al Jazeera.) How likely is it that the losers and tailenders in the field are the only ones doping, and not the winners? If someone is running like they are on rocket fuel (without fear of being caught), they likely are. Really, with so much at stake career-wise, why wouldn't they be?
She trains in Portland.
And there is no doping in the US. It is everywhere. Even, I dare say, Portland.
Simple really, here's why: wrote:
Klosterhalfen = Ectomorph
Cain = Mesomorph
it's a well known fact that mesomorphs at a young age have an advantage over ectomorphs at the same age, they're just all round stronger and more developed, the ecotomorphs catch up later (sometimes).
Excellent women, both of them. Wish I had daughters like them. Would have been very proud.
