Private coaches are in it for the money and the ego. They poach the top kids to make a name for themselves which they use to market their program and in turn make more cash.
They have to produce results because they are charging a fee, usually a high fee. So, they train kids too hard.
Do something for someone because you want to help them and you give them what they need. Do something for someone because they pay you and you give them what they want.
private pirate wrote:
Private coaches are in it for the money and the ego. They poach the top kids to make a name for themselves which they use to market their program and in turn make more cash.
They have to produce results because they are charging a fee, usually a high fee. So, they train kids too hard.
Do something for someone because you want to help them and you give them what they need. Do something for someone because they pay you and you give them what they want.
I was a private coach for a number of high school athletes for no charge.
Just in it for the ego?
No they don't wrote:
I was a 9:05 guy, I was coached by my regular high school coach and we both had input on what the training was.
From what I noticed about the top guys and girls in my state that had "private" coaches outside of their high school is they did not succeed in college. I think it's because a person that feels the NEED to only do what this private coach says and thinks that the private coach's workouts are the ONLY way to get fast, and in college they don't trust their coach because it's likely different from what their private high school coach did.
There are many many many different training plans and workout styles that can make a person fast. For the most part, if you work hard and run a lot you'll get faster. Especially at the high school level. Running around 9 flat for two miles isn't THAT crazy fast, you don't need some special program to get to that point. Now trying to run 13:20 in a 5k or 3:55 in a mile, that can take some more fine-tuning. But a high school kid just trying to run under 4:20 or under 9:20 has no business going against their high school coach to be trained by some other person.
I agree with this if the school coach is half decent. But, if the school coach has no idea how to coach and the rest of the team really doesn't care, then I think it would be beneficial to have a private coach. It just depends on each individual situation.
how nice wrote:
Just in it for the ego?
I'd imagine I'm in it for the same reason as other high school coaches.
meat... wrote:
If you are on a team, the team comes first. If you are a coach and want to be successful you develop a TEAM. The culture is important, does not work if everyone is not on the same page.
Private coaches do not coach teams and do not care about teams, they coach individuals.
If you are on a team you need to be 100% on it.
Yeah I'd rather have 3 XC national titles, 5 indoor national titles, a sub 4, and the HSR in 2 mile. If the team wants me, I would be more than happy to score 30+ points per meet for them. But if they don't, I'm still gonna do my thing.
private pirate wrote:
Private coaches are in it for the money and the ego. They poach the top kids to make a name for themselves which they use to market their program and in turn make more cash.
They have to produce results because they are charging a fee, usually a high fee. So, they train kids too hard.
Do something for someone because you want to help them and you give them what they need. Do something for someone because they pay you and you give them what they want.
This made me think of a once famous (infamous?) cycling coach who would cherry pick the top juniors whom other coaches had developed and then take credit for all their successes even the ones that came before he coached them. So many of these kids and parents were awestruck by this famous coach offering to coach their kid.
Yes, he did have a big problem. I actually coached at an all-comers club for jumpers that met on Sunday afternoons throughout the year, and many elite high school athletes work out with us even during the season. This young lady lived too far away to make it to our club, and the coach of the club she ran with in the summers refused to work with her during the season because he told her he knew the high school coach wouldn’t allow it. That’s why her mother called me.
To address your point, which I can see is offered up in good faith, I certainly consider coaching a profession, which is why I have IAAF level 5 and USTFCCA masters level certifications as a jumps coach. (Hard to beat one on one instruction with an expert to make rapid improvement in a highly technical field event.) Of course in professions like medicine and law, the patient and client have the absolute right to a second opinion, without the doctor’s or lawyer’s consent or knowledge, and they have they also have the absolute right to change their doctor or lawyer. Oh yes, and patients and clients can also sue their doctors and lawyers for professional malpractice.
Since the school athlete did not have those rights in regards to her their school coach, I did not consider their relationship entitled to the respect due a professional relationship.
CoachWag wrote:
I was once hired by a single mom to coach her daughter (a jumper) a few weeks before the Texas state meet. The daughter had received a 25% in-state scholarship to a Big12 school along with a promise that she would get a larger scholarship if her performance improved. (She had not improved from her sophomore to her senior year, in part because of injuries). In addition to doing some evening workouts with her I gave her some rules of thumb to follow in her high school workouts, if she could. The high school coach figured out what was going on and was understandably upset, even more so when I showed up at the State meet and spoke with her before her event. After they got into an argument, quite to my surprise the high school coaches left her alone and I was able to coach her during the competition. She set a couple of significant PRs and won the 6A state championship (in a major upset). More importantly,
she did get a modest increase in her scholarship to 40%.
Just so you know, you were in the wrong. The ends don't justify the means. In your mind, you think you were the hero because you "helped" her and her "single mother" get 15% more scholarship. A person like you doesn't stop to consider the destruction you cause when you cherry pick, but its the same all over the country with your type that swoops in and only works with the best. You get what you want, mess up a Coach's position of authority, and then move on without any thought of courage or commitment.
private pirate wrote:
Private coaches are in it for the money and the ego. They poach the top kids to make a name for themselves which they use to market their program and in turn make more cash.
They have to produce results because they are charging a fee, usually a high fee. So, they train kids too hard.
Do something for someone because you want to help them and you give them what they need. Do something for someone because they pay you and you give them what they want.
Maybe for some. But, not always the case.
I have the team I coach and sometimes train individuals mostly during track season from other teams that do not have the support they need from their head coach who might be busy with other groups. I take no money at all for this nor do I want any credit for it. I don't think anyone really knows who I am coaching outside of my team.
It's the same as when I reach out for a throws or jump coach to help with my program. I have had four all American throwers and one all American high jumper on my team. When I identified their talent I recruited for them a coach that knew the inside and out of their event. I can coach these events but I can not bring them to the elite level without help. Even though I gave those coaches the credit for what they did, neither of them wanted it. I gave them a gift certificate to a restaurant. Neither wanted to be paid. You might say this is not common but these individuals were easy to find.
A Hole "Club" Coaches Unite wrote:
CoachWag wrote:
I was once hired by a single mom to coach her daughter (a jumper) a few weeks before the Texas state meet. The daughter had received a 25% in-state scholarship to a Big12 school along with a promise that she would get a larger scholarship if her performance improved. (She had not improved from her sophomore to her senior year, in part because of injuries). In addition to doing some evening workouts with her I gave her some rules of thumb to follow in her high school workouts, if she could. The high school coach figured out what was going on and was understandably upset, even more so when I showed up at the State meet and spoke with her before her event. After they got into an argument, quite to my surprise the high school coaches left her alone and I was able to coach her during the competition. She set a couple of significant PRs and won the 6A state championship (in a major upset). More importantly,
she did get a modest increase in her scholarship to 40%.
Just so you know, you were in the wrong. The ends don't justify the means. In your mind, you think you were the hero because you "helped" her and her "single mother" get 15% more scholarship. A person like you doesn't stop to consider the destruction you cause when you cherry pick, but its the same all over the country with your type that swoops in and only works with the best. You get what you want, mess up a Coach's position of authority, and then move on without any thought of courage or commitment.
I agree in that I think what is wrong here is the lack of communication with the head coach. I have had a number of athletes approach me for help but I will only take them on if the head coach is ok with it. As and example I have a group of hurdlers I am working with at a local school. The head coach is taking care of their general conditioning days and I am coming in for the technical hurdle sessions. I can handle both but the coach only needs the technical help from me. Because we are working together there will never be an awkward moment like the one described where an athlete is placed in the middle of a battle of egos in competition.
At another school I had a girl approach me to coach her in her distance events. The coach said no and I have to respect that.
I would argue that in a healthier set up this athlete could have even performed better.
As a HS coach, I have had both good and bad experiences with private coaches. It can work, but it requires really clear communication and a lack of egos between the HS coach, the private coach, the athlete, and the athlete's parents. Some of my specific experiences below...
We had a situation several years ago where a field event coach quit two weeks before the season started. No one on the existing HS staff had experience coaching that event and we couldn't find someone qualified to coach it on such short notice. There was a local private coach that some kids had used in the offseason, so we set up a schedule for some of our advanced athletes where they trained with the sprint group on the HS team several days a week and met with the private coach on their own once a week to fine tune technical pieces of the event. We also had an existing member of our staff receive some training so they could do teach the basic drills with our beginners in that field event and supervise the more advanced kids. Over the course of the season, the school coach learned enough that they could coach them effectively in meet situations. This partnership worked because everyone was very clear on what roles were.
I've also had sprinters that wanted to continue training with their middle school AAU coach. They would come to the HS practice, but blow a lot of it off and then go work out with their private coach later that night. Most kids like that never really improved over the course of the high school because they didn't follow a cohesive plan. My best experiences with AAU sprint coaches have been when we've talked and agree to build off each other's training. For example, in indoor AAU, you will work with the athlete with a focus on acceleration for 6-8 weeks, then they will transition to the HS team where we will do a 6 week cycle on max speed followed by a 6 week cycle to start building speed endurance, then they will transition back to AAU for a focus on event specific technique in their best event for the final month. We will back off the last 1-2 weeks of each cycle to allow for some rest and a big performance at an important meet.
We rarely have issues with distance kids, but there have been the occasional issues where mom and dad is a marathoner and tries to change their off season training or wants them to do some strength and conditioning classes with a personal trainer. That's been easier to stop though because we've reached a point as a program where we can point to our results and history to show kids that isn't necessary.
If the program has a knowledgeable coach, than of course, I agree the athlete should not look for a private coach. The problem is, there are some high school coaches that don't have a clue what to do with the distance runners. Yes, the coaches that come on here are probably good coaches who care, but there are many others that don't have any idea what they are doing and don't care about the student's performances. Many of the dedicated kids know the training isn't right, but they don't know how to "tweak " it. My son was in that situation. Luckily, I ran in college and post collegiate, so I have a knowledge base. I talk to my son about periodization, workouts, mileage, etc. Because of this, he is able to talk with the coach about adding to workouts or running at modified paces. As long as the runner is honest with the high school coach, it can only benefit the runner and maybe the team.
Well, since your conclusion that I am in then wrong seems to depend on the idea that words like help and single mother have some different meaning other than what they clearly mean, I find your logic and reasoning spurious at the outset. And I hate to break it to you, but coaching at an all-comers club that meets one day per week and doesn't charge anybody, and agreeing to work individually with someone who seeks you out and is serious enough that they do offer to pay you, and presents a sympathetic case for needing your help isn't "cherry picking."
While I could argue that even under your misguided analysis - the "destruction" I caused (note that the quotation marks work much better around your words than mine) by hurting the coach's feelings was of course far outweighed by the financial benefit to the athlete and her family, my actual point is that, at least in field events, (or at least the jumps) I think it would behoove people to consider the relationship between the athlete and head coach more like that of a clarinetist or flutist to a band director, who should in fact not get his feelings hurt at all if the musicians in his band seek out private lessons ( particularly in the case like this one, involving a family with financial needs seeking a scholarship to college for their individual skill and accomplishments.)
Just BTW, the musician / music lesson analogy isn't mine, I got it talking with Pat Henry at the NCAA meet last year.
Since the originator of the thread asked if there were occasions when an outside coach wrote training plans for high school athletes, and the thread contained repetitive stories of incompetent outside coaches ruining their athletes performances by sneaking around and interfering, I thought my contrary experience might provide some counterpoint. Your criticism, which is based upon mischaracterizing my situation as being the same, rather than different from, those other situations really doesn't advance the debate.
Lukas Verzbicas wrote:
meat... wrote:
If you are on a team, the team comes first. If you are a coach and want to be successful you develop a TEAM. The culture is important, does not work if everyone is not on the same page.
Private coaches do not coach teams and do not care about teams, they coach individuals.
If you are on a team you need to be 100% on it.
Yeah I'd rather have 3 XC national titles, 5 indoor national titles, a sub 4, and the HSR in 2 mile. If the team wants me, I would be more than happy to score 30+ points per meet for them. But if they don't, I'm still gonna do my thing.
Bro, the 2nd fastest kid on my team is running 17:30+ in XC. I'm trying to win nationals, not hold hands with my teammates during workouts.
(this isn't actually Liam Anderson)
Liam Anderson wrote:
Lukas Verzbicas wrote:
Yeah I'd rather have 3 XC national titles, 5 indoor national titles, a sub 4, and the HSR in 2 mile. If the team wants me, I would be more than happy to score 30+ points per meet for them. But if they don't, I'm still gonna do my thing.
Bro, the 2nd fastest kid on my team is running 17:30+ in XC. I'm trying to win nationals, not hold hands with my teammates during workouts.
(this isn't actually Liam Anderson)
I think many of the negative posters are not looking at this individually. Do you expect a kid that has national level talent to run crappy workouts with a team that really doesn't care? And yes, there are many teams that have a crappy coach and nobody on the team really cares.
If the team is good and the coach is good... run for the team.
If the team is horrible and the coach doesn't know what he/she is doing... get a private coach.
I think many of the coaches on here just don't realize that they are in the minority, as far as being able to coach a dedicated athlete correctly.
Yes, I guess I'm a little biased. My Freshman and sophomore year, we averaged 25 miles a week. Coach treated us like hobby joggers. In 8th grade I ran a 4:42 mile. Guess what? I didn't improve. Sad thing is, I didn't know that my training was horrible. Then, got a new coach my junior year that changed everything. Ended up running 4:18.
Good for you, at least you weren't run into the ground by a so called great coach your frosh and soph years.
If you are too good for your team, go and get a private coach, seriously. Just don't try and run for your TEAM at the same time.
If the program needs to get better, be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Too many selfish mofo's out there.
I've been the private coach. I am hired by the parents that are frustrated by the poor coaching that their runner receives at the school. For example, the kid has talent, drive, and runs at a high level. The "distance" coach considers 8 x 200 with 5 minutes recovery between reps or a 30 minutes of easy jogging followed by four striders on the track to be a proper workout. Worse, the coach has never run distance and thinks a little plyo work and a few extra push ups creates race day "magic" or is so worried about injuries that he won't allow anyone to run more than 15 miles a week.
I sit down with the athlete and the parents, talk about goals, and set up a training plan for the season. The athlete skips the team's useless workouts to attend "academic tutoring" sessions which are actually the workouts that I administer at another track or park. They race for the school, putting up good times and scoring points. School coach is either oblivious and thinks his mastery of motivational speaking is getting the results or he chooses to bury his head in the sand. In May, the kid wins conference titles and qualifies for state. (Two of my charges won their respective state individual titles and moved on to good college careers in D1.)
I get the satisfaction of a job well done. The athlete learns proper training and enjoys success in a sport that they love. Coach McUseless has a state champion and gets his stipend renewed for next season.
It isn't selfish, as a poster suggested. High school kids need to race in high school meets to attract attention from college coaches plus the competition is better than what USATF and AAU offer once you get past age 13. You get one shot at high school racing - why accept being part of a participation focused program if you have the talent to do more? The reality is that many public school districts are pressured to hire a union teacher to coach rather than seeking out qualified coaches. This means that an English teacher that recently ran a charity marathon is offered the position (and stipend) before an outsider with distance coaching bonafides. It also levels the playing field for some public kids since the more affluent districts and the local private high schools hire real coaching staffs and have the bank to do so.
When I came into my school track program Freshman year a while before I graduated, I saw the pictures of this one guy from our team on the wall. I would soon find out he held records for the age 17 age group and then a state record and near the top time for the mile in my state, and finally a national title with a D1 scolly. I absolutely looked up to him and thought all that he did was awesome and If I followed what I was told I could at least get somewhat close.
Then as time went on I heard more about him, that he was a mean guy in HS and that he was sort of an a-hole, I didn't think it was true. But I kept hearing it and wouldn't acknowledge it until I had a trusted coach tell me that he was basically coached by his own dad and just showed up to put a uniform on. Funny to see that the guys on this thread said that a lot of these private coach guys do badly in the college level, the same thing happened to him but also done in by some medical issues so it's not all his fault.
Now some of the guys he rivaled back in the day have done a lot better than what he managed. One day you're senior year rivals with a dude, then 5 years down the road you've gotten some merits and that rival is leaving Oregon with 17 NCAA titles.
American success wrote:
The top Americans in the NCAA ran for their HS coaches. The top high school runners who went with a private coach all seem to disappear in college.
No. Grant Fisher wasn't coached by the Grand Blanc High coach. Outside friend of family.