Canova for hobby joggers: marathon training result

I don't have a spread sheet, but here's a calendar view of my training based on a Word document. "LR" = long run, "FL" = long sustained run, "AL" = alternations.

https://pasteboard.co/HI02zgh.jpg

The intervals aren't too difficult to decipher. "4 x 2 miles @ 6:40" means I ran 2 miles around 6:40 pace, jogged for a bit (usually 3-5 minutes, plus a water stop or bathroom break as needed) somewhere around 8:00 pace, and then repeated the process 4 times.

The fartleks make more sense if you read Canova's presentation. He describes fartlek workouts with 3 minutes at MP (around 6:30), then 2 minutes at 80% (around 7:50 for me), for around 25 minutes; then 2 minutes at MP followed by 2 minutes at 80% for around 20 minutes; then 1 minute at HMP followed by 1 minute at 80% for around 20 minutes. "3-4-10" means I started off with 3 repetitions of the first kind, followed by 4 repetitions of the second, followed by 10 repetitions of the third kind. Since this was the lowest priority workout, I experimented with some other type of maintenance intervals, including 3 sets of 1 mile at MP, 1 mile at HMP, and 800m at 10K pace, with plenty of rest in between. Eventually I switched to repeat 1000s, starting 1 each mile, working from MP down to 10K pace.

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Yes, the result is a bit behind what a well-trained marathoner could expect based on a 1:20 HM time. I've still got some things to work on. I don't think 50 mpw would have been enough, though; it took me 60-70 mpw to get my HM PR.

It was definitely interesting trying to adapt Canova's complex, elite-focused training to my level. Could I have gotten the same result with a different plan? Yes, and that's the crazy thing. From a Daniels perspective, nearly all my workouts are "junk miles." Too fast to be recovery runs, too slow to really stress my lactate threshold, and I basically never touched v02max. Maybe I would have been faster if I had used Daniels. But the nice thing about this approach was that the paces themselves weren't highly stressful, and it gave me a lot of experience at or near MP prior to race day (and also experience with how badly things can go wrong at barely under 7:00 miles). It was spooky enough as it was to think about running farther than I had ever run before, at a pace I could only manage for 14 miles, for a race distance that's notorious for things going wrong unexpectedly, in front of a lot of people I know.

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This race is public on Strava, but I'm not inclined to post a link to it or to the online race results here. LRC is awesome, but it's also LRC. Someone with motivation and some research skill can probably figure it out.

As for HR data, I have a watch-based HRM. In races it's gone as high as 215, but treat that as a number my watch tells me, not as my actual heart rate max. During the race, the recorded HR was:

Miles 1: 150

Miles 2-3: 164 avg.

Miles 4-10: 154 avg.

Miles 11-16: 158 avg.

Miles 17-19: 163

Mile 20: 145

Miles 21-26: 166

Last .2: 171

Overall average: 159

Haters gonna hate, but I think this is rather awesome. Thanks for all the details and continued responses. And congrats on a well run race.

I've only run one marathon and trained rather lightly for it (about 50ish miles a week doing on avg. 1.5 workouts a week) and that worked fairly well. I like the slight increase in what you've done and will definitely consider this for my spring buildup. But more than anything, this style of training just looks like it is really fun. Settle into a lot of long tempos and just go. I like that all the workouts are doable and in some way rather modular. Things like Daniels are way, way to rigid for me.

I hope you find a chance sooner rather than later to give it another go.

Thanks for sharing and congrats for your results. Anecdotally, When I was 39 I had almost exactly the same PR (36:30 10K 1:20 HM) and on my first marathon I run 2:54 with half of the mileage (most weeks were 35-40 miles and peaked at 45) and a completely different approach.

Thank you for the detailed report on your Canova based marathon training plan. Congrats on getting that 2:53. I am using a Hanson’s inspired plan myself and it is interesting to compare the differences in workouts between your plan and my plan. Particularly interesting is your long intervals which cap out at twice the total distance of Hanson’s Strength Intervals (all total around 6 miles of work although the goal is MP-10 seconds) and the fartleks which are more like the Hanson’s Speed Intervals which caps out at 3 miles total max. Great job on your race.. I think it is hard to get to the predicted marathon result based on VDOT/McMillan. I just ran an untapered 1:16 which is equivalent to a 2:40 but I don’t think that is realistic.. sub-2:45 is my goal at NYC.

Excellent work and thanks for the write-up! I would say that one thing you would want to change is to get more time at marathon pace in a long run of 20 miles or more, where the marathon pace is gradually expanded in the second half of the run.

I think that the lack of this cost you in the last four miles.

I have been doing 20+ mile long runs with 26.2K at or near GMP. (Just the last 2 and the next one this weekend 3 weeks out from the race) hoping this helps prepare me for NYC. Before I did Progression long runs from Easy to MP with a HMP finish.

Thanks for sharing, very interesting and getting within 3% of your 'potential' is great for a first Marathon, very few people nail their first one.

That looks like very solid training, even a touch on the hard side (to go 16 miles MP in that length run), making it harder to recover but really toughening you up if you can handle that. Since you did, I am sure that you are going to run very well at NYC.

Which workout would you recommend to see what shape you were in for your target race?

For a first marathon, there's more uncertainty than for shorter races. What gave me some confidence going in was not just one workout, but the progression from the previous workouts.

The most race-specific workout progression was definitely the long sustained runs. When I blew up after 10-11 miles on the day I was hoping for 14, I knew that wasn't a good sign. When I was able to complete it 2 weeks later, and feel much more controlled while doing so, I knew that my goal was at least possible. The other peak workouts were going better, too, including having something left in the tank to pick up the pace at the end of the long runs, so I had some additional indications that the training had worked. But you still don't know for sure until the finish line.

The link to the slides is dead. I contacted Serrano Athletismo, and they provided the PDF. I've made it available on my blog: http://blog.sltr.us/2019/08/renato-pdf.html

Why complcate things that don`t have to be complicated? Canova`s approach is not a good way for hobby joggers and other amateurs.....and as another person posted: You run even worse at the marathon relatively to your 1:20 half marathon and only 2:53.... A runner with 1:20 at half should be able to run 2 x 1:20 + 5 min= 2:45 ! ......if coached with a magic wand ))

There's a much better system out at the market nowadays. A modified version of the great coaches Lydiard, Canova,Daniels, Gerschler and Stampfl in the same package! A very effectively system on just relatively low mileage.

This is not a dead thread just waiting for you to shill on, JS. I plan on updating this thread with a few future results, so go hawk your wares somewhere else.

For amateurs it is possible to estimate the % of canova without leaving out too slow speeds below 100%, that is the marathon rhythm.

The best way is to take the current human limit of Eliud Kipchoge and calculate its % not yours.

The speed per km of Kipchoge is 172,983 seconds per km and you want to calculate 80%:

Then 172.983/100 = 1.72983 x 20 = 34.5966 seconds.

Therefore 80% is 172.983 + 34.5966 = 207.580 that is 3 '27 "58 at km.

Note that Canova does not calculate % as is done in the US, but with direct proportion.

Now your marathon pace is 246.712 seconds per km, so you have to translate your curve by doing: 246.712-172.983 = 73.73 seconds.

So your 80% pace will be: 207.580 + 73.73 = 281.31 seconds or 4'41"31 at km.

This method works only at 100% and for all V's under 100%, above 100% is a little different, you need to know or even estimate your personal on HM, 10k, 5k, 3k and put them in a cartesian chart with in abscissa % of human limits and in ordinate your personal bests.

Thanks Scorpion!

I ran 2:40:38 for my 20 a few days ago and was able to recover (6 easy) the next day. Do you think I have a shot at 3:20 or better? A lot of training I've done mirrors what #47 did but at slower paces.

7:30 is my goal MP.

Here’s an update. After going 2:53 in a marathon a year ago, the challenge was: Use the same method to break 1:20 for the half marathon as a master’s runner. Over the winter I took an orthodox Daniels approach to the mile, which got me to 5:12 (and around 17:45 for 5K), in line with my high school PRs from 30 years ago (allowing for age decline). But for this HM build-up, I returned to Canova for hobby joggers.

The mileage

55, 60, 64, 30 (10K race in 37:45)

71, 68, 82, 71, 11 (traveling)

56, 56, 71, 82, 58, 42, 25 (plus goal HM; I hadn’t planned such a big taper, but caught a bad cold 2 weeks out)

So the average training week was 66 with a peak of 82, all in singles, while the real average for all 16 weeks was 57. But I only did training blocks of 3/4/5 weeks before a break of some kind.

The workouts

As with the marathon training, I did 2 workouts per week, progressing 4 workout types once every 2 weeks. In order of priority, they were:

1. Long intervals. 6 reps, starting at 6 x 1 mile and progressing the rep length by a quarter mile each time up to 6 x 2 miles. The first rep was at MP, the next 4 at HMP, and the last rep was broken into 1 mi/800/400 segments. I usually took long rests of five minutes or more jogging. The final workout 3.5 weeks before the race was 2mi @ 6:25/mile, 4 x 2mi @ 6:11/mile, and the broken rep was around 5:55/mile.

2. Long sustained run. Starting at 6 miles at MP (6:42) leading directly to 1 mile HMP (6:14), and increasing the MP segment a mile each time. The final workout 2.5 weeks before race day was 10 MP (6:22/mile) + 1 mi (5:53).

3. Maintenance intervals. 800-1200 reps with around 10K total volume and 400-800m jogging rests. The last rep was also done broken into 400/200 segments down to mile pace. 10 x 1000 (6:04/mile), 12 x 800 (5:58), 10 x 1000 (6:08), 8 x 1200 (5:56).

4. Long run. 14, 16.5, 18, 20, 12, 17.5, 20.5. The pace was indifferent and there were frequent water stops. I bailed out early on a few of them when things weren’t going great since it wasn’t the top priority.

I had to cancel the last major workout I had planned because I was out with a cold from 14 to 9 days before race day, so 7 days out, I did 2 mi MP, 2 x 1 mi HMP, and 2 x 800 10K/5K pace with long rests. Race week I did some HMP strides.

The race

The course was flat and USATF certified. Perfect racing conditions (mid 40s, no wind). I mostly ran solo, but I was slowly catching guys who had started faster for most of the race. The first two miles were 6:10s, then 6:00, then I dipped below 6:00/mile and stayed there. I felt good – better than good, actually – the whole way. Days like this don’t come along often, so I made it count and sped up to mile pace on the last few hundred meters. Finishing time: Just barely under 1:18, which beat my fantasy goal time by over a minute.

Discussion

I initially thought that there was nothing in my workouts indicating that sub-1:18 was possible, but some of my final long interval workouts and long sustained runs were actually on the low end of what Canova had prescribed for HM training paces, based on his math and a 6:00/mile goal pace. A little caution about paces and volume for a late 40’s hobby jogger compared to Canova’s elites is probably in order.

With warm-up, cool down, and rests, the total distance covered on many workouts was still 15-20 miles, so these were big efforts requiring an off day or easy recovery pace the next day, around 8:10-15/mile. Otherwise easy runs were usually 7:55-8:05. Was this too much volume? Given the result, I don’t think so. High modulation of effort works well for me.

Taking long rests between intervals is not usually recommended. I hate short rests, which means I should probably try a buildup that addresses the length of rests, but my results from high volume with long rests aren’t too bad, either.

This is the first time I’ve run a race that age grades (83%) better than what I did in high school (81-82% for my PRs, around 4:43/10:05). I’ve always been slow twitch (I don’t think I ever broke 60 for a 400 in high school), so maybe I’m just better suited for long distance than mid-distance races.

I was wearing Vaporfly Next% for the last sustained run and the race. The shoes definitely account for some of the improvement in time. Other factors include much better conditions than my last HM (1:20-mid in 20 mph wind) and a much better buildup (all summer to work and higher mileage, compared to trying to train in miserable winter weather or indoors). In my last HM, I started off faster but was redlining from mile 4 and barely holding on the rest of the way. This time, the pace came to me and I felt fantastic the whole way. Moderate muscle soreness afterward. It was still a hard effort, though. It’s taking me nearly as long to recover from the race as it did after my marathon.

Next up: Boston.

Wow, those are some long workouts! Nice job putting it all together. And congrats on the 1:17. For me, that's a fast time no matter what, but in your late 40s, that's super awesome.

Can't wait to hear more about your Boston buildup.

2:53 at first marathon by a runner with 1:20 at half? Should run 2:45 marathon !