AT, AnT, LT, VT, CV and other kinds of threshold

5K Runner wrote:

"Hmm. Interesting. Is VO2 max a good enough indicator? I would think so. The problem might be determining your VO2 max early on."

But isn't it possible for someone to have a high V02 Max, but not the other characteristics that are essential for being a top distance runner, such as the right body type or mental toughness?

Yeah, and I hope Tinman gets in on this discussion. It is possible for someone to have a high VO2 max but have not trained their LT high enough, so you don't see good performance.

I appreciate the post. I wanted to clarify that I didn't say that LT was the point at which lactate "peaks" but rather that it "spikes"--meaning exactly what you did when saying that lactate begins to increase exponentially.

Also, I tend to use sensory descriptions of all of these terms when talking to my athlete:

``75%: Easy

75-80%: Medium or "conversational but still working"

85%: we call this "full of run" or "floating" runs. We want to run as fast as we can without any feeling of lactate.

88-93%: "Comfortably hard" or "fast but with something left in the tank"

%%93%: becomes "hard" for us since with high schoolers we are looking at running close to VO2max

I think that it is very important for athletes to understand the internal data their body is constantly processing (Source: Wetmore). These paces are controlled by a myriad of external forces and good runners understand how to listen to what their body is telling them.

I couldn't agree more with Brettman and other about the necessity to understand the continuum. Thanks.

It might be easier to conceptualize these paces if we took the McMillan calculator and plugged in a recent race time, then associated those paces with particular race paces--5K, 10K, halfM, Marathon. That way, each runner could simply go to McMillan's calculator, plug in the recent race time, get his list of paces, and properly label them.

Can somebody, for the sake of clarification, do that with the following? They're derived from a recent race time: a 20:00 5K:

5K: 20:00 (6:26 pace)

10K: 41:33 (6:41 pace)

10 Mile: 1:09:37 (6:58 pace)

1/2 Marathon: 1:32:27 (7:04 pace)

Marathon: 3:14:58 (7:27 pace)

My working understanding of effective training paces goes something like this:

V02max: somewhere between 6:10 and 6:26 pace

LT/AnaerobicThreshold: around 6:55 pace ("one-hour pace")

7:04 - 7:27: the range of "high aerobic" training, also called "steady-state" zone. Good for longer tempo runs and second hour of 2-hour long runs, but always go by feel; find "full of run" feeling just below lactate accumulation; push up to but not over that edge

7:35: aerobic threshold: a good notch to find. Full ventilation but relatively low musculoskeletal stress; safer than steady-state (can be touched more often per week w/o undue stress)

8:10 - 8:15: basic easy/medium training pace

9:00 and slower: recovery pace

These paces represent a synthesis of McMillan, Kellogg, and Pfitzinger, as I understand them and as they seem to work with the body I actually inhabit.

Comment welcomed.

Just for the heck of it I made an Excel spreadsheet where in one column you put minutes and in another column you put seconds, which represent your 5k time right now. Then in the other cells I have automatically calculated: Easy, Brisk, Moderate, AT, MP, LT, CV, 10k, 8k, 5k, 2 mile, 3k, mile. I know that's sad, but it was kinda fun. I'd like to find correlating factors for other race distances as well. I believe I will have to do so on my own using Daniels book Oxygen Power. I'd like Half-marathon, 10 mile, 15k to be added.

brettman10k wrote:

Yeah I agree with you. It is a continuum (like I've typed 1000 times). Of course LT is not exact, that's why I included in my definition that that is the point where lactic acid takes over as PRIMARY fuel. Same as back at AT. It just so happens that at that pace the muscle fiber usage is about 50/50. But it is irrelevant to train at 5:20 (if LT) instead of 5:24 (a bit slower). The longer you run the farther down the continuum you will shift. Even if you start running at LT velocity, surely if you run long enough you will hit your VO2 max. Everything is "on" all the time. Even back at 70% 5k velocity, there is SOME white fiber helping. I agree, some people feel there are definitive points/thresholds when this is actually not quite true. Good discussion and excellent point.

I would argue against lactic acid (lactate) being the primary fuel source. Muscle glycogen and other sources of glucose, yes, but not lactate. Even running at 4 mmol/l that is not going to be a major fuel substrate.

SpinneyLives wrote:

This...

"VO2max is hereditary as is trainability..."

...truly is something. Expand upon it please.

Basically you could put everyone on a training program that has been shown to be successful and some just would not improve as much as others.

science coach wrote:

I appreciate the post. I wanted to clarify that I didn't say that LT was the point at which lactate "peaks" but rather that it "spikes"--meaning exactly what you did when saying that lactate begins to increase exponentially.

My error in attributing the word peak when you wrote spike. However, spiking is not correct either as a spike has a point at which things start to go down again. Any measure of LT will still show an increase in lactate levels far after the "threshold". In anything, the spike will occur around VO2max and then start to drop off as a result of fatigue or muscle glycogen depletion.

Regardless, it is not a spike. A peak will occur if a person goes to volitional fatigue.

I have several Excel spreadsheets with all the number, paces, etc. which I believe are more thorough and more precise than anything I have seen on the market. I have given them to athletes I coach for use, but perhaps in the future I could make them available for others. I do not wish to denegrate other's work. It is wonderful that people devote time, talent and energy to finding the truth or at least as much of it as they can.

In reality it is the world of elite running the provides the explicit knowledge of what human performers in atheltics can do. There is more information obtained by looking at relationships between peformances by elite runners than anywhere else.

Tinman,

I have always appreciated your posts. I would love to utilize some of your spreadsheets if you are interested in making them "public" on a limited level.

Thanks.

Tinman and luv2run:

Should I have said fuel SOURCE? The main energy is derived, way back at the starting point, from lactate? I don't think I have understood this the correct way in the past. Thank you.

I have been asked by Glen Grant, a former elite miler from England, to write a book with him. I have basically reserved some of my material for that book. I have some information typed about 10k training so far, but the process of writing a book can go slowly because time and energy constraints affect motivation.

I have seriously considered just publishing a manual with charts in it. There are a few research projects for advanced degrees in there, presumably. I would include these or some of these:

Tinman's...

Comparison Racing Chart; 5k Training Chart; Speed Equivalency Chart (100m to 1 mile - all odd distances between them such as 200, 300, 400, 500m, etc.) for the purposes of comparison and for training; Repetition Training Chart (the 5 key intensities, there exact percentages relative to each distance, 100-3200m, the rest periods between reps and the volume); Distance Runner's Training Chart; 5k & 10k Minimum Speed Chart (reveals what basic speed you need, what endurance can overcome if one lacks speed); Velocity to VO2 Chart (shows what O2 one would normally achieve at a give velocity and time (for standard distance such as 3k, 5k, 10k, and marathon); High School Track Training Chart(s); Training Volume of Intense Workouts Chart; Workouts for Runners (800m-3200m); 1500m Training Chart; 1600-3200m Training Chart; Formuals for Determing Interval-Repetition Paces; VO2 Max Computations; and 6k Training Chart to name a few. The other items I have in file are "how to train" in nature.

This thread seems to jump around a bit. Is it possible to ask me individual questions (one at a time)? I think my responses might be more exacting, therefore.

My apologies for my overspecific, perhaps overenthusiastic post. I've contributed as much as anybody to the "jumping around" aspect. No comment needed on my post.

Tinman, your clarifications here are always informative and always appreciated.

5K Runner wrote:

"Hmm. Interesting. Is VO2 max a good enough indicator? I would think so. The problem might be determining your VO2 max early on."

But isn't it possible for someone to have a high V02 Max, but not the other characteristics that are essential for being a top distance runner, such as the right body type or mental toughness?

You're both right. VO2max is a great indicator of potential among a random population. That is, if you rounded up 100 people at random and sent them off on a 5k race, you'd be wise to bet on the people with the highest VO2max values to finish in the top IF THAT'S ALL YOU KNEW ABOUT THEM. On the other hand, within a defined population such as elite runners, VO2max is NOT a very good indicator of perormance because of things like running economy. Thus, if all you knew about a group of elite runners was their VO2max values, you'd have poor luck predicting the winners using just that.

Consequently, I don't think early testing of VO2max to spot future stars would be the wisest move when coupled with the other factors that make elite runners great, such as work ethic, a genuine interest (motivation) in the sport, running economy, injury resistance, etc. I think it would be easier and much more effective if you just had youngsters run. They'll wind up self-selecting. Besides, with the current obesity epidemic, just getting kids to run is a great goal in and of itself.

Jim is absolutely right.

I venture to say a coach would best predict potential for future performance almost exclusively on a 2 mile time trial or race. It would predict VO2 max exceptionally well and yet provide information about aerobic power (the application of VO2 max).

Amen!

I recall The President's Council on Physical Fitness and Arnold's efforts to publicly get kids into fitness...perhaps Nike or adidas or any of the myriad of "fitness" companies would be best served to spend much of their marketing dollars on a program that got kids running!

JimFiore, Tinman...willing to be a spokesperson?

Hmmmm...help curb obesity among youth and find the next "Pre"!

I have no doubt that many more kids have the attributes of the famed Steve Prefontaines in America now, but they are eating Doritos and swigging Pepsi; not at all exercising.

My wife sees it often as a teacher and coach. She recognizes incredibly gifted youth who don't go out for sports. She sees kids swell with fat before her eyes.

It is odd that we think we can't compete with the African runners yet so many incredible kids are hanging out in hallways with their friends and doing nothing active. The kids are there, but the system has to improve; must change to involve kids in postive outlets.

60% MHR or less-jogging

60-70% MHR-slow

70-75% MHR-easy

75-80% MHR-aerobic conditioning

80-85% MHR-AT to MP

85-90 MHR-MP to LT

90-92%-CV (Tinman)

92-94% MHR-10k

95-98%-5k

Your listed heart rates are good references. The things that throw those number off, however, are dehydration, hot and humid weather, altitude, time of day, glycogen stores, etc, so one must be smart enough to correlate heart rates, velocity, and effort. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Appreciated.