Isn't TheJeff an assistant cross-country coach at a private middle school?
Isn't TheJeff an assistant cross-country coach at a private middle school?
Let's differentiate between running to win a race and running for a world record- Borzakovsky was concerned with winning championship medals.
How many world records were negative split, let's say since the 1960's?
I think Ryun's 880 world record of 1:44.9 was a negative split race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFxmloerZIoOld and Slow wrote:
I think Ryun's 880 world record of 1:44.9 was a negative split race.
Was Ralph Doubell's WR run at the 1968 OG 800m final negative split or even splits?
It has to do with the time course of exhausting anaerobic reserves. It tends to take about 3 minutes to reach a point where the measured amount of joules from anaerobic capacity one can expend stops rising quickly. In short, you want to expend as much of those reserves as you can over the course of that 800m without flooding the system with lactate to the point you can't run fast.
Example for numbers people:
Aerobic Capacity: 380 watts
Anaerobic Capacity: 600 watt/minutes
For 4 minutes we can expect this person to put out approximately 380w + (600/4) = 530w
However for 2 minutes we will not see them put out 380w + (600/2) = 680w
Instead over 2 minutes this person is more likely to have an ouput of 380w + (600/2*.886) = 645w
I realize this isn't necessarily a format most runners are familiar with.
Yes it's better to be positive in the 800m rather than negative. Grumpy runners never race well
Kohlschreiber wrote:
From the elite level perspective.
Rudisha - 1:41.01 / 49.1 and 52.0 / 6% difference.
Kipketer - 1:41.11 / 49.3 and 51.8 / 5% difference
Cruz - 1:41.77 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
Coe - 1:41.73 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
These men have the fastest 800m times and were the most successful in competition races.
It appears that running a negative split is not as effective to run a WR time or be a consistent race winner in races.
Is Borzakovskiy the best negative split 800m runner ever?
Peter Snell's WR for the 800m/880y was also ran with a positive split.
Is there an 800m WR with a negative split?
Ryun and Wottle world records were negative splits.
All others positive splits.
This link says Doubell was positive split, but same link is wrong about Rudisha London splits which were 49.3/51.6:
http://www.runnerspace.com/news.php?news_id=12316
Bad Wiggins, any links to research about that pH difference thing? Are you saying you want the blood more acidic and the muscles less acidic just before you start an 800?
pretenders wrote:
Hardloper wrote:
Rudisha's 3 WR were all run with a ~2 second positive split, including the first two which were basically just him and a pacer, with nobody close after 400 meters.
Neither Jeff nor Jon watch athletics in any capacity. They just troll
I guess that wasn’t me out there coaching for the past decade and a half. It seemed so real, too...
Isn't wrote:
Isn't TheJeff an assistant cross-country coach at a private middle school?
Lol not quite :-)
Look at Coe's 1984 splits wrote:
You are correct regarding extra metres. I would like to know Coe's 200m splits in 1984 800m Olympic final. He appeared to run a more even split race than the other competitors whom finished in top five. Coe did run numerous extra metres in that race. Coe chose relatively even splits (more even than the others) over running extra metres.
Coe's 400m splits in the LA 800m final were not particularly even; certainly no more so than any of the others in the final; although he didn't go off as quickly as some of the others, so his first 200m would have been a little slower.
He did, however, run quite a bit of extra distance, as he tended to do in championship races for fear of being boxed. Against most, he was still able to win, despite running further. But with Cruz in that sort of shape in LA, he couldn't afford to run even a foot further than necessary. I don't think any of the world's top 2 lap runners expected Cruz to be in 1:41/1:42 shape before the Olympics.
Coe's official splits were: - 51.29, 52.35. He ran approximately 9.5 - 10.0m extra on bends. That means he was capable of between 1:42.36 and 1:42.42 that day, had he just run 800m, as in a paced circuit race.
Cruz's official splits were: - 51.16, 51.84. He ran approximately 5.5 - 6.0m extra on the bends. That means he was capable of between 1:42.23 and 1:42.30 that day, had he just run 800m, as in a paced circuit race.
It should also be noted that at the top of the final straight, between 90 and 60m from home, Coe clashed elbows with Earl Jones twice, which affected his rhythm and definitely cost him a metre or two. In addition Coe received no drafting from 200-400m, and Cruz 140m of no drafting on the first lap, so both could possibly have been a couple of tenths faster with said drafting on the first lap.
If we break both runs down to 200m splits (to nearest 0.1) we get the following:-
Coe - 24.5, 51.3, 1:17.9, 1:43.6
24.5, 26.8, 26.6, 25.7
Cruz - 24.1, 51.2, 1:17.8, 1:43.0
24.1, 27.1, 26.6, 25.2
I'll now break down their 'ideal' 200m splits in that race if they hadn't run wide on the bends.
N.B. - each entire bend run 30cm from the line between lanes 1 and 2 = an extra 2m
- each entire bend run on the line between lanes 1 and 2 = an extra 2.91m.
- each entire bend run 30cm past the line separating lanes 1 and 2; i.e. 30cm into lane 2 = an extra 3.8m.
- each entire bend run in the middle of lane 2 = an extra 4.8m
Thus my estimates on the extra distance run is based on these facts.
Coe: - first 200m = 24.5 (obviously no extra distance).
He then ran the 2nd bend wide, most of it with both feet in lane 2. I approximate this was c. 3.25m extra. His 300m split was 37.7, meaning he ran the bend in 13.2, but as that would have been 103.25m, then his split would have been 12.8 for that bend (37.3sec). He then ran the next 100m in 13.6.(51.3 at 400m) Had he not run wide on 2nd bend, then his 400m time would have been more like 50.9.
On the 3rd bend, he ran practically on the line between lanes 1 and 2, and more often than not, his right foot was in lane 2. I estimate he ran 3.0m extra on that bend. His 500m split was 1:04.9 (another 13.6 split), but adjusted for the extra 3m, it was equal to 13.2 (giving a 500m split of 1:04.1). He ran the backstretch in 13.0 , giving an official 600m of 1:17.9, but it would have felt more like a 1:17.1 in an ideally paced run with no wide running on bends 2 and 3.
Coe ran the last bend a similar extra distance wide as in the 2nd bend, approximately 3.25m. He went through 700m in 1:30.6, giving him a penultimate 100m of 12.7. Had he run on the inside of lane 1, it would have been 12.3!, giving him an 'ideal' 700m split of 1:29.4. Just after this point he clashes elbows with Jones, as Cruz pulls another couple of metres away. Coe's rhythm and stride are definitely affected, but he wouldn't have caught Cruz, though I believe he'd certainly finished a couple of tenths quicker. Coe's last 100m was 13.0.
So, Coe's ideal 200m splits were - 24.5, 26.4, 26.2, 25.3 = 1:42.4
Cruz: - first 200m = 24.1 (obviously no extra distance).
He then ran wide of the middle of the lane for the 2nd bend, but not as far as 30cm inside lane 2. I estimate he ran about 1.5m wide, which is worth about 0.2sec. He went through 300m in 37.4, giving him a 2nd bend 100m split of 13.3; although without the extra 1.5m, it would have been more like a 13.1 split, and a 300m of 37.2 He then ran the next 100m in 13.7.(51.1 at 400m) Had he not run wide on 2nd bend, then his 400m time would have been more like 50.9. Interestingly, the same for Coe, had both run on inside of lane 1.
On the 3rd bend, Cruz ran wider than he had on the previous bend, and on average I estimate it was about 30cm inside the line with lane 2. That means he ran c. 2m extra, worth c. 0.3sec. He went through 500m in 1:04.7, meaning his 'official' 100m split was 13.6; but it would have felt more like 13.3 and he'd have reached 500m in an ideal 1:04.2 He ran the backstretch in 13.1 , giving an official 600m of 1:17.8, but it would have felt more like a 1:17.3 in an ideally paced run with no wide running on bends 2 and 3.
N.B. At 600m, although Cruz was 0.1 sec ahead of Coe, by this stage Coe had covered c. 606.25m, and Cruz 603.5m.
Cruz ran the last bend, again wide, about 30cm inside the line with lane 2, but not as wide as Coe ran it. He covered about an extra 2m, and passed 700m in 1:30.4. His official 100m stretch round the last bend was 12.6. With the extra 2m, that would have been ideally 12.35! Meaning he would have reached 700m in 1:29.65. He finished with a 12.6 last 100m.
So, Cruz's ideal 200m splits were - 24.1, 26.8, 26.4, 25.0 (24.95) = 1:42.25
3 interesting out takes from that analysis:
1) Despite a clear and decisive win by Cruz, it was actually a lot closer in terms of actual speed, distance covered;
2) With the extra distance taken into consideration on the 3 bends, Coe covered the 400m from 200 - 600m in 52.6, compared to Cruz, who covered the same stretch in 53.2, some 0.6sec slower!
3) At that level, tactics and the choice to run extra distance at the expense of not being boxed in, can be critical. The extra distance taken by an athlete is not always obvious to the viewer, especially in such a fast event like the 800m, where positioning changes so often and so quickly.
Deanouk wrote:
Look at Coe's 1984 splits wrote:
You are correct regarding extra metres. I would like to know Coe's 200m splits in 1984 800m Olympic final. He appeared to run a more even split race than the other competitors whom finished in top five. Coe did run numerous extra metres in that race. Coe chose relatively even splits (more even than the others) over running extra metres.
Coe's 400m splits in the LA 800m final were not particularly even; certainly no more so than any of the others in the final; although he didn't go off as quickly as some of the others, so his first 200m would have been a little slower.
He did, however, run quite a bit of extra distance, as he tended to do in championship races for fear of being boxed. Against most, he was still able to win, despite running further. But with Cruz in that sort of shape in LA, he couldn't afford to run even a foot further than necessary. I don't think any of the world's top 2 lap runners expected Cruz to be in 1:41/1:42 shape before the Olympics.
Coe's official splits were: - 51.29, 52.35. He ran approximately 9.5 - 10.0m extra on bends. That means he was capable of between 1:42.36 and 1:42.42 that day, had he just run 800m, as in a paced circuit race.
Cruz's official splits were: - 51.16, 51.84. He ran approximately 5.5 - 6.0m extra on the bends. That means he was capable of between 1:42.23 and 1:42.30 that day, had he just run 800m, as in a paced circuit race.
It should also be noted that at the top of the final straight, between 90 and 60m from home, Coe clashed elbows with Earl Jones twice, which affected his rhythm and definitely cost him a metre or two. In addition Coe received no drafting from 200-400m, and Cruz 140m of no drafting on the first lap, so both could possibly have been a couple of tenths faster with said drafting on the first lap.
If we break both runs down to 200m splits (to nearest 0.1) we get the following:-
Coe - 24.5, 51.3, 1:17.9, 1:43.6
24.5, 26.8, 26.6, 25.7
Cruz - 24.1, 51.2, 1:17.8, 1:43.0
24.1, 27.1, 26.6, 25.2
I'll now break down their 'ideal' 200m splits in that race if they hadn't run wide on the bends.
N.B. - each entire bend run 30cm from the line between lanes 1 and 2 = an extra 2m
- each entire bend run on the line between lanes 1 and 2 = an extra 2.91m.
- each entire bend run 30cm past the line separating lanes 1 and 2; i.e. 30cm into lane 2 = an extra 3.8m.
- each entire bend run in the middle of lane 2 = an extra 4.8m
Thus my estimates on the extra distance run is based on these facts.
Coe: - first 200m = 24.5 (obviously no extra distance).
He then ran the 2nd bend wide, most of it with both feet in lane 2. I approximate this was c. 3.25m extra. His 300m split was 37.7, meaning he ran the bend in 13.2, but as that would have been 103.25m, then his split would have been 12.8 for that bend (37.3sec). He then ran the next 100m in 13.6.(51.3 at 400m) Had he not run wide on 2nd bend, then his 400m time would have been more like 50.9.
On the 3rd bend, he ran practically on the line between lanes 1 and 2, and more often than not, his right foot was in lane 2. I estimate he ran 3.0m extra on that bend. His 500m split was 1:04.9 (another 13.6 split), but adjusted for the extra 3m, it was equal to 13.2 (giving a 500m split of 1:04.1). He ran the backstretch in 13.0 , giving an official 600m of 1:17.9, but it would have felt more like a 1:17.1 in an ideally paced run with no wide running on bends 2 and 3.
Coe ran the last bend a similar extra distance wide as in the 2nd bend, approximately 3.25m. He went through 700m in 1:30.6, giving him a penultimate 100m of 12.7. Had he run on the inside of lane 1, it would have been 12.3!, giving him an 'ideal' 700m split of 1:29.4. Just after this point he clashes elbows with Jones, as Cruz pulls another couple of metres away. Coe's rhythm and stride are definitely affected, but he wouldn't have caught Cruz, though I believe he'd certainly finished a couple of tenths quicker. Coe's last 100m was 13.0.
So, Coe's ideal 200m splits were - 24.5, 26.4, 26.2, 25.3 = 1:42.4
Cruz: - first 200m = 24.1 (obviously no extra distance).
He then ran wide of the middle of the lane for the 2nd bend, but not as far as 30cm inside lane 2. I estimate he ran about 1.5m wide, which is worth about 0.2sec. He went through 300m in 37.4, giving him a 2nd bend 100m split of 13.3; although without the extra 1.5m, it would have been more like a 13.1 split, and a 300m of 37.2 He then ran the next 100m in 13.7.(51.1 at 400m) Had he not run wide on 2nd bend, then his 400m time would have been more like 50.9. Interestingly, the same for Coe, had both run on inside of lane 1.
On the 3rd bend, Cruz ran wider than he had on the previous bend, and on average I estimate it was about 30cm inside the line with lane 2. That means he ran c. 2m extra, worth c. 0.3sec. He went through 500m in 1:04.7, meaning his 'official' 100m split was 13.6; but it would have felt more like 13.3 and he'd have reached 500m in an ideal 1:04.2 He ran the backstretch in 13.1 , giving an official 600m of 1:17.8, but it would have felt more like a 1:17.3 in an ideally paced run with no wide running on bends 2 and 3.
N.B. At 600m, although Cruz was 0.1 sec ahead of Coe, by this stage Coe had covered c. 606.25m, and Cruz 603.5m.
Cruz ran the last bend, again wide, about 30cm inside the line with lane 2, but not as wide as Coe ran it. He covered about an extra 2m, and passed 700m in 1:30.4. His official 100m stretch round the last bend was 12.6. With the extra 2m, that would have been ideally 12.35! Meaning he would have reached 700m in 1:29.65. He finished with a 12.6 last 100m.
So, Cruz's ideal 200m splits were - 24.1, 26.8, 26.4, 25.0 (24.95) = 1:42.25
3 interesting out takes from that analysis:
1) Despite a clear and decisive win by Cruz, it was actually a lot closer in terms of actual speed, distance covered;
2) With the extra distance taken into consideration on the 3 bends, Coe covered the 400m from 200 - 600m in 52.6, compared to Cruz, who covered the same stretch in 53.2, some 0.6sec slower!
3) At that level, tactics and the choice to run extra distance at the expense of not being boxed in, can be critical. The extra distance taken by an athlete is not always obvious to the viewer, especially in such a fast event like the 800m, where positioning changes so often and so quickly.
Thanks for the analysis.
That is the beauty of the 800m race. Positioning and tactical awareness is usually the different between winning and finishing 2nd as the 1984 OG final showed.
It appeared Coe had to fight a lot to get into a reasonable position behind Cruz. But Cruz was clearly the man on the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWhQElyS3WcKohlschreiber wrote:
From the elite level perspective.
Rudisha - 1:41.01 / 49.1 and 52.0 / 6% difference.
Kipketer - 1:41.11 / 49.3 and 51.8 / 5% difference
Cruz - 1:41.77 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
Coe - 1:41.73 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
These men have the fastest 800m times and were the most successful in competition races.
It appears that running a negative split is not as effective to run a WR time or be a consistent race winner in races.
Is Borzakovskiy the best negative split 800m runner ever?
Cruz had to run around a pace maker who didn't move out during his 1:41:77 run, he could have broken the WR!
Djokovic wrote:
Kohlschreiber wrote:
From the elite level perspective.
Rudisha - 1:41.01 / 49.1 and 52.0 / 6% difference.
Kipketer - 1:41.11 / 49.3 and 51.8 / 5% difference
Cruz - 1:41.77 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
Coe - 1:41.73 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
These men have the fastest 800m times and were the most successful in competition races.
It appears that running a negative split is not as effective to run a WR time or be a consistent race winner in races.
Is Borzakovskiy the best negative split 800m runner ever?
Cruz had to run around a pace maker who didn't move out during his 1:41:77 run, he could have broken the WR!
He moved out briefly on the back straight, so the extra distance would have been inches!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tHUPdjnnwWhen Coe ran his 1:41.73 WR, he ran about half the 3rd BEND wide in lane 1 to pass Konchellah. He incurred at least 1.5m, or 0.2sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3zM33_jFScSo if Coe hadn't had to run around his pacer, the WR would have been 1:41.5, and so Cruz would have been still outside by 0.2sec.
Kohlschreiber wrote:
From the elite level perspective.
Rudisha - 1:41.01 / 49.1 and 52.0 / 6% difference.
Kipketer - 1:41.11 / 49.3 and 51.8 / 5% difference
Cruz - 1:41.77 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
Coe - 1:41.73 / 49.7 and 52.0 / 4% difference
These men have the fastest 800m times and were the most successful in competition races.
It appears that running a negative split is not as effective to run a WR time or be a consistent race winner in races.
Is Borzakovskiy the best negative split 800m runner ever?
Any Olympic 800m final won with a negative split?
Wottle in Munich 72? If not negative this was exactly evenly split I think.
I watched on youtube a few days ago the 1984 Olympics men 800m final. Billy Konchellah may have negative split that race. Konchellah was 6th or 7th I believe at 500m mark with 300m to go.
Bungei 2008 Olympics 53.35/51.30
Ovett Moscow 54.9/50.5
Wottle 1972 Munich 53.3/52.6