Does Training in Minimalist Shoes = Faster Racing?

jack shoes wrote:

So, I've been training much more injury free during the past three years of my running career than in the previous 19 years of my career. The only change I've made during this time is that I've slowly worked my way down to as little shoe as possible. Today I ran a quickish 10 in Puma H-Streets.

My race times during this time haven't improved, however. I suspect that they might have were I a younger man. I am pretty over-ripe. My question to Trackhead and other minimalists----have you gotten faster as a direct result of your minimalist ways?

Like you said, if you've been running for 22 years, as I have (actually longer), you may be past the point where you can PR no matter what shoes you wear and how you train. I realize this for myself but I've been training in lighter shoes for the past few months anyway. I feel my form is better in lighter, flatter shoes. Time will tell if they help me avoid injuries.

What is not clear? If you cannot do all your runnign comfortably in your racing shoe, you are lacking in strength/efficiency.

It's like after Torres NCAA xc win -- he said his calves were killing him. He made it out that day, but would have been faster if his calves weren't going crazy because of the sudden drop.

I'm past the point where I am willing to debate the merits of minimal shoes----it has made such a difference in keeping me healthy. Skeptics can say what they want.

My question was about running distances faster.....

That said, I will share an anecdote:

I've been running in the Asics spikeless xc shoes for all of my runs for about three years. During this time, I've had almost no leg issues. Preceding this change, I had partially ruptured and achilles, had p.f., stress fractures, i.t. band problems, and a load of other maladies. I wore orthotics with motion control shoes. In between injuries, I was racing 10ks (usually in the 31:00-31:30 range).

Finally, I had it with the injuries and the shoes that were supposed to prevent them. I started from scratch wearing (on advice from Lydiard) as little on my feet as possible. At first, my calves were hamburger----I ran no more than 35 minutes a day for the first 30 days. Slowly but surely, I've built back to my higher volume. (I ran 31:30 in the h-street last month).

I'd been having a hard time finding the kind of shoes I wanted for the price I'm willing to pay, so I picked up a pair of Asics Gel Magic Racers on a whim and to fill a void in my shoe collection. Within two weeks of training in these, I had massive achilles pain, a nasty tightening of my psoas, and a crazy foot pain.

It actually took me a few days to figure out that it was probably the shoes---the Magics are light and at first glance seem minimal to some. I went back to my hstreets and an old pair of Asics spikeless-----the injuries disappeared within two weeks.

The issue for me is heel height. Even though the Magic Racers are lighter than the Asics spikeless, they are much chunkier.

For doubters of the minimalist shoe movement----I am a doubter that I could ever train in "regular" training shoes again.

I can not yet do long, long runs on the road in my h streets. Before I run a marathon on the road, I want to be able to do a three hour run on pavement in the h street.

....too much information, I know.

[quote]trackhead wrote:

If you cannot do all your runnign comfortably in your racing shoe, you are lacking in strength/efficiency.

Who says? That is utter nonsense. Virtually all the experts who write on running and whose books I've read recommend so-called trainers with whatever degree of support and cushioning one requires, for training. This includes Noakes, Shorter, Rodgers, Galloway, Henderson, Burfoot, Glover, and many more. That does not preclude training in flats for those who can, but they do not recommend it for most runners. They unanimously recommend routine training in trainers and if you are able, racing in flats.

trackhead wrote:

It's like after Torres NCAA xc win -- he said his calves were killing him. He made it out that day, but would have been faster if his calves weren't going crazy because of the sudden drop.

Yeah just think if he were training in flats as you suggest. He might have still won. I like how you analze/blame every problem on training shoes. "I have a hang nail" Trackhead's analysis "It's because of high heel shoes!!!"

And why do you think that is? What happens when some guy does way too much too soon and is pissed at Shorter, Galloway, etc. for rupturing his achilles?

how do you figure somone will rupture their achilles from running in higher shoes? I think it doesn't make a difference either way. We run in a country full of concrete and asphalt. That is the reason of alot of the injuries in the sport is because of hard surfaces and gravity pushing down on us onto it. IF a person takes the time to strengthen their calves through raises, drills, and stretching who is to say that either way makes a difference. There is still no prrof right now that minimalist shoes produce results of faster times. YEt there are multiple examples of being who have run fast off of so called high heel shoes. DOnt start making references to the Africans because they are not here in America having to train on our surfaces. So we can use you trackhead as the tester of showing us rather it really makes a difference. I do not think it does but that is my opinion and the way I go about my training which has produced faster results then you have had in the past. By the way are you still running for your college or just on your own?

a) not every problem is shoe related, however many are

b) while not every shoe problem is related to high heels, many are

c) You have an athlete (Torres) who was training in the Kantaras with a 25mm heel and a 12mm forefoot. He then races in the Kennedy with a 9mm heel and a 3mm heel. That's a bit of adjustment to make.

Quit with the sore calves and make a permenant adjustment.

a) the achilles/calf injuries stem from training a high heel and then running in a psike ro flat. Find a height and stick to it. You'll be injured less, race more comfortably and make huge gains in strength and efficiency.

I would not have believed it myself had I not done it.

As for my own personal racing, vamos a ver.

Every person's body is different and reacts differently. EVery runner has a different stride and form and way of hitting the ground. So no one shoe or style is the answer for all nor will it ever be. Everyone's body reacts differently to training and stresses. SO you can not say that running in minimalist shoes is the answer for everyone. You have said before that the extra weight of the shoe does not make a difference when a person is training and it adds no benefit. The why change to flats/spikes ever and just race in trainers all the time. Because carrying extra weight does make a difference. When you can train in heavier shoes than a person who trains at your same paces in a minimalist shoe and then they both wear racing flats who do you think will come out on top. More than 80% of the time it will be the guy carrying less weight for the first time in a race. The reason injuries are happening is because runners are not taking care of themselves by putting in the extra work of stretching and strengthening exercies to prevent injuries. You would rather do the typical american lifestyle and be lazy and just changfe shoes.

trackhead wrote:

He then races in the Kennedy with a 9mm heel and a 3mm heel. That's a bit of adjustment to make.

I'm sure this is a typo.

But... trackhead, your snake oil won't sell here. I'm placing you in the same category as Richard. Uneducated, with a few examples that support your non-traditional theories.

Good luck in the shoe store dude, work on getting those DVDs out to the people who paid you.

hey trackhead what does vamos a ver mean? I think we all would like to know if you are still running in the NAIA or just on your own now. SO we can figure out how to find results in the future. ARe you still training under Steve Scott?? and racing for him?

I'm only promoting what Lydiard and Japan have done for decades.

Please tell me what I'm trying to sell.

stipe wrote:

Over the last year, I've moved from conventional trainers (structure triax, 2080/90) through lightweight trainers (ds trainers, nb 900) and now do all running in flats (streak vapor, wave aero (though the heel isn't low enough). I have pr'd in the half marathon and hopefully will do so in the marathon within a few weeks. Faster times are the result of a variety of factors (consistent training, improved nutrition, perfect weather, improved efficiency). Aside from all of the comparisons, I will say that it does make sense to do a lot of running in whatever shoes we race in. And my legs do feel stronger and more efficient.

I used to have tons of lower leg problems. They vanished when I stopped wearing stability and motion control shoes, and switched to neutral trainers like the Skylon or the Landreth. I also wear hard custom orthotics. I think the orthotics combined with the anti-pronation features of stability shoes was overkill for my legs and caused many problems such as tendonities in my posterior and anterior tibial regions.

However, I once did some intervals (hard 400's) without my orthotics and I tore my spring ligament in my arch and spent the next year having to tape my arch for most every workout.

He's right about Lydiard. He often railed against the built up shoes that people wear today. You want to lump Arthur in with Gibbens?

trackhead wrote:

Please tell me what I'm trying to sell.

Self-importance. Much in the same manner that you post about your personal interactions with top international runners whenever possible.

Perhaps if we could separate the message from the messenger, this would work better, eh?

trackhead wrote:

And why do you think that is? What happens when some guy does way too much too soon and is pissed at Shorter, Galloway, etc. for rupturing his achilles?

What a stupid comment. Do you realize what something like that does to your already low credibility?

Average_Joe wrote:

You want to lump Arthur in with Gibbens?

Not at all.

Lydiard contributed, well, everything to this sport.

trackhead and Richard have yet to do so.

They are self-promoting hacks.