d2xccoach wrote:
Totally ignoring your 6 bullet points... I analyze marathon finisher numbers on an annual basis and look at times about every 3-4 years. Some stats from 2013 (the last year I analyzed) that may indicate courses that are fast - and these are for USA marathons only and are in order of most (or fastest) to least...
10 fastest winning times: Chicago, LA, NYC, Houston, Boston, Grandma's , Twin Cities, Pittsburgh, Quad Cities, Cal International
Most sub 2:20 finishers: Chicago, Grandma's, Boston, Twin Cities, NYC, Cal International, Houston, LA, 26.2 With Donna, Pittsburgh
Most sub 2:30 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Twin Cities, Cal International, Grandma's, Houston, LA, Philadelphia, 26.2 With Donna
Most sub 2:45 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Philadelphia, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
Most sub 3:00 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Philadelphia, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
I know, most of these get a lot of sub 2:30/sub 3:00 finishers because they're the biggest marathons in the country. I get that. I'm more interested in the other races that pop up on my list like Quad Cities and Columbus.
A few races on my list that appear slower based on the criteria I look at: Honolulu, Disney, RnR San Diego, San Francisco, Flying Pig, Country Music, Miami, Austin, RnR Arizona Those were all in the Top 25 largest USA marathons in 2013, but all had significantly slower winning times and less sub 2:30/2:45/3:00 finishers than some races with thousands less finishers like St Francis, Vermont City, Eugene.
A few others, lesser known, that continue to pop up on my list: Richmond, St Francis, Eugene
Interesting that Grandma's made every one of those lists even though it's a good bit smaller than the others that were on all of them. Anyone around who's run it that can offer a quick race review? Was it faster than you expected?
Pocono Run for the Red. Large net downhill. Quads will take a beating, but there's A LOT of BQ PR's there.
G'ma wrote:
d2xccoach wrote:
Totally ignoring your 6 bullet points... I analyze marathon finisher numbers on an annual basis and look at times about every 3-4 years. Some stats from 2013 (the last year I analyzed) that may indicate courses that are fast - and these are for USA marathons only and are in order of most (or fastest) to least...
10 fastest winning times: Chicago, LA, NYC, Houston, Boston, Grandma's , Twin Cities, Pittsburgh, Quad Cities, Cal International
Most sub 2:20 finishers: Chicago, Grandma's, Boston, Twin Cities, NYC, Cal International, Houston, LA, 26.2 With Donna, Pittsburgh
Most sub 2:30 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Twin Cities, Cal International, Grandma's, Houston, LA, Philadelphia, 26.2 With Donna
Most sub 2:45 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Philadelphia, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
Most sub 3:00 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Philadelphia, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
I know, most of these get a lot of sub 2:30/sub 3:00 finishers because they're the biggest marathons in the country. I get that. I'm more interested in the other races that pop up on my list like Quad Cities and Columbus.
A few races on my list that appear slower based on the criteria I look at: Honolulu, Disney, RnR San Diego, San Francisco, Flying Pig, Country Music, Miami, Austin, RnR Arizona Those were all in the Top 25 largest USA marathons in 2013, but all had significantly slower winning times and less sub 2:30/2:45/3:00 finishers than some races with thousands less finishers like St Francis, Vermont City, Eugene.
A few others, lesser known, that continue to pop up on my list: Richmond, St Francis, Eugene
Interesting that Grandma's made every one of those lists even though it's a good bit smaller than the others that were on all of them. Anyone around who's run it that can offer a quick race review? Was it faster than you expected?
Interesting that 26.2 with Donna appears several times as a fast race considering it is a fun(d)raising-type event with not prize money or elite program.
jus da fax wrote:
My advice is to go with NYCM or MCM
pros: 26.2 miles, large crowd, good medal
cons: libtards!
Both courses are known to be slow for PR's.
I'm waiting for the obligatory post from a Flying Pig lover who will say that the 1200-1400 feet of climbing is not that bad and that he has his PR there.
d2xccoach wrote:
Totally ignoring your 6 bullet points... I analyze marathon finisher numbers on an annual basis and look at times about every 3-4 years. Some stats from 2013 (the last year I analyzed) that may indicate courses that are fast - and these are for USA marathons only and are in order of most (or fastest) to least...
10 fastest winning times: Chicago, LA, NYC, Houston, Boston, Grandma's , Twin Cities, Pittsburgh, Quad Cities, Cal International
Most sub 2:20 finishers: Chicago, Grandma's, Boston, Twin Cities, NYC, Cal International, Houston, LA, 26.2 With Donna, Pittsburgh
Most sub 2:30 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Twin Cities, Cal International, Grandma's, Houston, LA, Philadelphia, 26.2 With Donna
Most sub 2:45 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Philadelphia, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
Most sub 3:00 finishers: Boston, Chicago, NYC, Cal International, Philadelphia, Twin Cities, Grandma's, Marine Corps, St George, Columbus
I know, most of these get a lot of sub 2:30/sub 3:00 finishers because they're the biggest marathons in the country. I get that. I'm more interested in the other races that pop up on my list like Quad Cities and Columbus.
A few races on my list that appear slower based on the criteria I look at: Honolulu, Disney, RnR San Diego, San Francisco, Flying Pig, Country Music, Miami, Austin, RnR Arizona Those were all in the Top 25 largest USA marathons in 2013, but all had significantly slower winning times and less sub 2:30/2:45/3:00 finishers than some races with thousands less finishers like St Francis, Vermont City, Eugene.
A few others, lesser known, that continue to pop up on my list: Richmond, St Francis, Eugene
You are providing the most number of finishers with fast times for races with huge fields. Of course those races would have the largest number of fast times.
Wouldn't it be more useful to know the races that have the highest PERCENTAGE of finishers with those low finishing times?
Interesting that Grandma's made every one of those lists even though it's a good bit smaller than the others that were on all of them. Anyone around who's run it that can offer a quick race review? Was it faster than you expected?
I've run Grandma's the last two years, only my 2nd and 3rd career marathons. Trained for a BQ in 2017 - missed 3:15 by 17 minutes. [Started out too fast to plan and then temps rose to mid-upper 70s]
The race meets many of the OPs criteria, but not all.
It's not a fall race.
Otherwise, it's quite flat, with the only "significant" uphill at about mile 21, sort of steep but not long. Then downhill to the finish.
It's in Duluth, on Lake Superior, which one would expect to be generally cool. However the last two years have been unseasonably warm on race days (mid-70s to 80). Late June in MN can be highly variable. It could also as easily be 40 degrees if the wind were off the lake. Course heads southwest for the first 25 miles, so a tailwind would be a blessing and a headwind - well......
Plenty of pacers, about every 10 minutes. There was a 3:15 pacer in 2017.
Really well organized. 8,000 or so runners. Many shuttle buses from Duluth and Superior to the start line. Pretty quiet course along the lake until mile 19 when you enter Duluth, then the crowd steadily increases all the way to the finish. Really good post race party! {In 2017, I literally saw a volunteer at the start area take his hoodie off and give it to a runner who was cold}.
The only other marathon I've run is Twin Cities. It meets all of the OP criteria. Fall race, where Grandma's is not. Twin Cities is "hillier" than Grandma's, but I don't think would qualify as a hilly course. There is a good climb from about mile 21 to 22.5. Then flat to downhill to finish.
OP, I entered the Chicago drawing and did not get selected. I'm running Twin Cities instead, my hometown race, and am happy with it. This year they happen to be on the same day.
rpaulson7 wrote:
Interesting that Grandma's made every one of those lists even though it's a good bit smaller than the others that were on all of them. Anyone around who's run it that can offer a quick race review? Was it faster than you expected?
I've run Grandma's the last two years, only my 2nd and 3rd career marathons. Trained for a BQ in 2017 - missed 3:15 by 17 minutes. [Started out too fast to plan and then temps rose to mid-upper 70s]
The race meets many of the OPs criteria, but not all.
It's not a fall race.
Otherwise, it's quite flat, with the only "significant" uphill at about mile 21, sort of steep but not long. Then downhill to the finish.
It's in Duluth, on Lake Superior, which one would expect to be generally cool. However the last two years have been unseasonably warm on race days (mid-70s to 80). Late June in MN can be highly variable. It could also as easily be 40 degrees if the wind were off the lake. Course heads southwest for the first 25 miles, so a tailwind would be a blessing and a headwind - well......
Plenty of pacers, about every 10 minutes. There was a 3:15 pacer in 2017.
Really well organized. 8,000 or so runners. Many shuttle buses from Duluth and Superior to the start line. Pretty quiet course along the lake until mile 19 when you enter Duluth, then the crowd steadily increases all the way to the finish. Really good post race party! {In 2017, I literally saw a volunteer at the start area take his hoodie off and give it to a runner who was cold}.
The only other marathon I've run is Twin Cities. It meets all of the OP criteria. Fall race, where Grandma's is not. Twin Cities is "hillier" than Grandma's, but I don't think would qualify as a hilly course. There is a good climb from about mile 21 to 22.5. Then flat to downhill to finish.
OP, I entered the Chicago drawing and did not get selected. I'm running Twin Cities instead, my hometown race, and am happy with it. This year they happen to be on the same day.
OP: Some additional comments. I have run it several times. A lot of people to run with but not crowded. The organization is incredible and the town comes out to support it. Even though as previously noted, the crowds pick up around Mile 19, there are still a fair amount of spectators (in pockets) in the first 19 Miles.
It is usually in the low 50s but the last two years have been insanely hot/humid. The course is essentially flat except for a longish and not too steep hill (actually an overpass) at mile 22 and a short hill at @ mile 23.5 taking you up to the main street in Downtown Duluth. At 25 miles, you turn back down to the lakefront for the finish.
Grandmas is on June 16, 2018 and you still have 6 months to train. Registration is still open. As Carrie Tollefson would say -- "Get after it!"
Richmond is one of the faster courses on the east coast. No hills to speak of really. Hardest part is dealing with wind on a bridge. Steep downhill finish (which I actually don't like but many people love).
OAT wrote:
https://marathondupetittraindunordenglish.weebly.com/course.html
Is that run on gravel? I would be concerned about that.
Thanks to everyone who posted suggestions on races. I'm bored enough at work to have wasted a few hours scraping sites and compiling your ideas into this spreadsheet:
A few disclaimers:
1) Some sites haven't published 2018 dates yet so I re-used 2017.
2) For "Flat" I eyeballed the elevation chart where available.
2a) *I gave Marine Corps Marathon the benefit of the doubt since there's an uphill but it's early on.
3) For "Net downhill" I was a bit conservative, looking for more than just a few feet of drop.
3a) *St George is very net downhill but the starting elevation is also high enough to impact performance.
4) Average high is pretty self-explanatory, except St George looks f***ed up. And apparently in Canada they don't do averages, so I had to make something up for Hamilton.
5) Pace groups marked N* had them but only for 3:30 or slower.
6) Steamtown needs to fire their web designer. I gave up trying to read that site.