Dec 9th was unusually warm and had incredibly low humidity. I had a mountain bike race in SD at the same time as FL and got super dehydrated. Affected our efforts, likely theirs too.
Dec 9th was unusually warm and had incredibly low humidity. I had a mountain bike race in SD at the same time as FL and got super dehydrated. Affected our efforts, likely theirs too.
I agree that the big difference is the course surface. Overall the footing was better/faster in the 80s than it is now.
The course route has varied slightly over the years. In the 80s the south-to-north traverse at the very top of the course before plunging down the hill was a more direct line than it is today, and the path through the landing area at the bottom of the hill was often slightly different as well -- some years, there was a common road crossing used in both directions (i.e. approaching the mile mark and coming out of the trees after descending the hill used the same set of boards).
There have also been a few one-off minor changes from time to time, such as a slightly different approach to the mile mark in a rare wet year to avoid a soggy section of grass, and altering the turn slightly at the bottom (west) end of the course one year to avoid a fallen tree. In 1989 the course hugged the curb more after descending the hill instead of weaving through the trees, and in 2003 the route stayed closer to the hedges at the top of the course. But none of these changes had a significant impact time-wise.
Note also that in 1979 and 1980 it was a totally different course, at the west end of Balboa Park along 6th Avenue.
Veteran spectator wrote:
It is absolutely the surface of the course that has changed. I was there in the 80’s. I was there on Saturday. My guess is that in the interval the many droughts in California has meant less irrigation of the park. There have been mandatory water restrictions off and on for years including for municipalities. The route is exactly the same but many stretches are now soft dirt or sandy rather than firm turf. While NXN is pulling a few kids off, the FL field is still plenty deep - the kids are not getting slower, more likely the opposite when you look at track times. It is always sunny in SD, but this past Saturday felt particularly warm.
I've been around since then too and completely agree with you.
What I don't get is how is the 85 video almost the exact same quality as this year's video? The video from NXN was horrible quality as well. Why are they shooting these in 720p?
Jonathan Gault wrote:
In the past 10 years, four guys have broken 15:00 at Foot Lockers...
Here's the all-time list of fastest times at FL Finals at Balboa Park:
14:36.8 Reuben Reina 1985
14:38.1 Marc Davis 1986
14:40.2 Chris Solinsky 2002
14:41.3 Mark Mastalir 1985
14:41.7 Adam Goucher 1993
14:49.8 Todd Williams 1986
14:50.0 Scott Fry 1984
14:50.9 Mark Dani 1985
14:51.4 Jonathan Hume 1985
I...?
None of these guys are top 10 in the all time HS 30000/3200/2 mile list
Of course Reina, Williams.. are good runners, but so are Ches, Fernandez, Hunter, FIsher... and they are nowhere near the top 10 on this course. Seems funny that the mid 80s was so good in XC (on this course only) yet so bad on the track. What other major XC course has so many top times from 1984, 1985 and 1986. Seems quite coincidental.
Yep, suspected this for a while. Notice that the old guys pretty much always say it was harder in their day, but people who ran this course are saying it was faster in the 80s. You can't seriously tell me that Scott Fry, Mark Dani, etc., were as good as two-time champions and national record holders like Verzbicas (3:59/8:29), Cheserek (8:39i), etc., or that Reuben Reina or Adam Goucher were well better.
2002, the first year back in San Diego, seems pretty fast as well -- sure, Solinsky was great, but he put up a time that no one since has approached, which includes plenty of runners you'd think were as good or better based on their results on other courses and on the track.
While I certainly don't doubt that some years the FL Course may have been slightly different which may include some years being a little shorter than others - I also believe comparing track times from across the country is easy to do, but also believe the humidity. wind, competition, and workload of the day/weekend (athletes doubling/tripling/need to run trials and finals, etc.) can obviously have an impact on the times.
It's great that for the majority of almost 40 years of FLN competition have been at the same site and basically the same course and be can have these discussions about all of the great runners that have competed on that course.
Verzbicas was on CR pace in his last race at Footlocker before walking the last half mile to finish in 14:59. The record is still out there for the best of the best if they choose to go after it.
to the people saying guys are puss*s and dont wanna run fast, explain the best high school runner ever in Drew Hunter only running 14:55 going really hard, might have been a little better if he was pushed 2 1/2 miles like riena was but 20 seconds off the record?
The course absolutely must be slower now than it was in the 80s, but I don't believe the course has made any significant changes.
Drew Hunter and Lucas Verzbicas who were significantly better than all the guys on that list and by all accounts they went for fast times there.
You can't say its because of tactical racing because those same guys (Hunter in particular) have run 8:40s for 2 miles in those same style championship races.
I'd say the course is 30 seconds slower than the 80s and 10 seconds slower than even the 2000-2010 era. I think the terrain continues to get worse and worse year to year and that is the largest contributor. But also this year the weather played a significant role in slowing down the times.
Having raced it many times as a youngster and several times as a master, the course has always been the same. Agree that the conditions have changed, but that is true from year to year in any given year. Last year, so cal had a lot of rain and it was damp, cool and soft in spots. This year, we have not any real measurable rain since last Spring so it is dry and dusty. One thing I've noticed recently is that the Cali and western region kids simply don't stack up against the other regions. Not true in the Dani and Davis days.
The other thing I would say about this course is that is deceptively brutal and is a true harrier's track. Uneven footing, slippery woodchips, constantly twisting and turning with no real long straight stretches to get into a groove. Other than the 2 big hills, there are other subtle elevation changes like the dog park loop that take a toll. It exposes the weak and rewards those who can grind and are nails mentally. Everyone out here points to Mt. Sac as one of the hardest courses in so cal. I'd take Mt. Sac anytime over Morley (Balboa Park).
83rnr wrote:
I just noticed , are the runners wearing spikes ??? We were not allowed spikes in 1983? Just a thought.
I also ran HS xc in Calif in the early 80s. Correct, the CIF did not allow spikes for xc races. However, the FL regionals and nat'l races are not governed by the CIF, so the athletes can wear the footwear of their choice. When my daughter ran FLN a decade ago, the athletes were given racing shoes and had their choice of spike or flats. I also noticed a mix of spikes and flats being worn during the race.
Interesting. The runners atop the all-time fastest list on the FL Balboa course are not the fastest milers or two milers by a longshot. This is understandable, given that the FL Balboa course is less like a track and more like a roller-coaster:FL time, Name, Year, -->> 1600 PR / 3200 PR 14:36.8 Reuben Reina 1985 --> 4:05 / 8:58 14:38.1 Marc Davis 1986 --> 4:13 / 8:55 14:40.2 Chris Solinsky 2002 --> 4:03 / 8:43 14:41.3 Mark Mastalir 1985 --> 4:04 / 8:51 14:41.7 Adam Goucher 1993 --> 4:18 / 8:55 14:49.8 Todd Williams 1986 --> 4:12 / 8:57 14:50.0 Scott Fry 1984 --> 4:08 / 8:46 14:50.9 Mark Dani 1985 -->> 4:10 / 8:49 14:51.4 Jonathan Hume 1985 --> 4:15 / 9:25 Perhaps those are the top of the FL Balboa list are not necessarily the fastest, but rather the strongest runners.
Jggjhvhvjjvhjvhjvhg wrote:
Jonathan Gault wrote:
In the past 10 years, four guys have broken 15:00 at Foot Lockers...
Here's the all-time list of fastest times at FL Finals at Balboa Park:
14:36.8 Reuben Reina 1985
14:38.1 Marc Davis 1986
14:40.2 Chris Solinsky 2002
14:41.3 Mark Mastalir 1985
14:41.7 Adam Goucher 1993
14:49.8 Todd Williams 1986
14:50.0 Scott Fry 1984
14:50.9 Mark Dani 1985
14:51.4 Jonathan Hume 1985
I...?
None of these guys are top 10 in the all time HS 30000/3200/2 mile list
Of course Reina, Williams.. are good runners, but so are Ches, Fernandez, Hunter, FIsher... and they are nowhere near the top 10 on this course. Seems funny that the mid 80s was so good in XC (on this course only) yet so bad on the track. What other major XC course has so many top times from 1984, 1985 and 1986. Seems quite coincidental.
Can I get some cheese to go with that WHINE!!
Dirt, wood chips, mud, dust, rocks, rain, wind, heat, cold, too many turns, not enough turns, hills too big, hills too small, measuring from the middle and not point to point, wearing spikes not wearing spikes..........Are you freakin' kidding me!! It's cross country not track. I'm not sure where some of you ran but when did soft grass become faster to run on than hard pack dirt? or even semi-soft dirt? Answer: NEVER. It's the same course as it's ever been. The fact is that every cross country race is different both in conditions and tactics. Reuben Reina's time of 14:36 in 1985 was fast due to him being pushed for 2 plus miles and him being a GREAT runner (Olympian). Marc Davis was in a battle against Todd Williams in 1986. In 1983 Brad Hudson took the field out in 4:20 for the first mile (same mile mark as today). Matt Giusto (Olympian) took the lead just after the mile and ran solo to win in 14:54. His legs were covered in mud from the wet soggy grass on the top portion of the course. The 1980's had some bad-ass runners laying down some great times and went on to have great careers. All those boys would of run just as fast if not faster on today's course.
The bottom line is that anyone who runs sub 15:00 at Balboa Park is a damn good runner!!!
FL Follower wrote:
Could this be a sad reflection of climate change? Very little grass this year compared to the vintage video footage.
Also curious if they remeasure the course yearly and try for 5000m? Course measurement rules have changed a few years ago and if done correctly, the new course would be much longer than the the old course, so comparing times would be a bit of misrepresentation from past stars to the current lot.
I'm also guessing like most courses, there always seems to be slight alterations over the years.
Love the commentary by ML and the video work was amazing with picture in picture interviews!
Since "climate change" is nothing but a lie used by the mensheviks to try and derail Western industry, you'd better come up with another excuse. lol
83rnr wrote:
We were not allowed spikes in 1983?
I don't know. Were you?
Jesus dude,
If you are going to be a "journalist" be a "journalist"
They do research, they write to people, the look at objective facts.
They don't post message on their employer's website looking for guesses.
This thread I find interesting coming from Illinois in the mid 80's. I really did not think of Kinney/Footlocker as a big deal. Illinois State meet I thought of as the end-all be-all. Most of the top guys I ran with and against skipped Footlocker. A lot of us played winter sports, basketball/wrestling, indoor track was very rare at most schools. Track back then or at least for my friends was considered a different sport. If we went out it was to get in shape for summer cross country training. With that being said I'm surprised but not surprised the 80's cross times were more favorable to the track times.
Lefties are Idiots wrote:
FL Follower wrote:
Could this be a sad reflection of climate change? Very little grass this year compared to the vintage video footage.
Also curious if they remeasure the course yearly and try for 5000m? Course measurement rules have changed a few years ago and if done correctly, the new course would be much longer than the the old course, so comparing times would be a bit of misrepresentation from past stars to the current lot.
I'm also guessing like most courses, there always seems to be slight alterations over the years.
Love the commentary by ML and the video work was amazing with picture in picture interviews!
Since "climate change" is nothing but a lie used by the mensheviks to try and derail Western industry, you'd better come up with another excuse. lol
The lack of grass may not be a direct reflection of climate change but it is a fact that there is little grass in the 2017 addition of FLN...just a fact...not an excuse.
To claim that Ruben Reina would have run faster than Verzbicas or Hunter is ludicrous.
How about comparing Fernandez to Marc Davis.
Fernandez PR is 14 seconds faster than Davis at CA state meet and yet he was close to 30 seconds behind at Footlocker. That just doesn't make sense. The only explanation that is logical is that the course has slowed down over the years.