Should have Michel Jazy run in the 1500m instead of the 5000m at the 1964 Olympics?

Great link!--but not much training by Jazy himself. Hurt? (Sorry, I'm actually taking a French review course right now, but I still missed a lot of the narration on this.) Anyway, enjoyable to see Jean Wadoux et al. in action.

well,, wrote:

Jazy training:

http://www.ina.fr/video/CPF04007162

Great post can anyone translate?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

A fastest loser or did say the top 4 go through?

Top 4 went through but 5th place was close behind Snell.

Is there full footage of the 1500m Tokyo final? I can only find partial footage.

Interesting article about Jazy avoiding races against Snell and Clarke.

Jazy was more interested in racing in France against the clock, rather than against other top runners.

https://www.si.com/vault/1965/06/21/607584/the-big-three-are-miles-apart

Jazy did race against Clarke.

After Ron Clarke had helped him break the 2-Mile and 3,000 world records in the same race, Jazy broke his competitive schedule to run against the Australian in the World Games in Helsinki over 5,000. It was a chance to see if he really was the best 5,000 runner in the world.

This race had a marvelous field: Jazy, Keino, Clarke, Schul, Wiggs, Mills, and Haase. Following a pre-race agreement, Clarke and Jazy kept the early pace so fast (2:41, 5:24) that Schul was dropped after five laps. At 3,000 (8:05) only Clarke, Keino and Jazy were in the lead group. After eight laps Clarke tried in vain to break his two opponents. When he realized that he couldn’t do this, he eased up and decided to wait till he last 500. But his acceleration at this point was again easily matched by Jazy and Keino. Clarke led at the bell (12:31), and soon after Keino sprinted by. Clarke was dropped, but Jazy easily slipped into the Kenyan’s wake. Jazy made his effort on entering the last bend. With a last 200 in 26.6, he held on to win by 0.6 of a second with a new European record of 13:27.6. This was a fitting climax to his wonderful 1965 season.

the above race circunstances makes little sense

it was run on 30th june which is still mid-season, so not exactly a climax when 1/2 season to go

he ran numerous other races rest of year but all in very slow times

however, last 100m in 12.6 wasn't going to lose

however more, what the f**ck was Keino doing schedule wise those few days either side ???

- 26th june - 13'26.6 !!

- 30th june - 13'28.2 in 0.6s loss to jazy

- 2nd july - 13'26.2 !!!

no rest at all for jazy race & crushing his legs was almost ron's wr of 13'25.8 set just earlier in june when he'd smashed it down from previous one of his of 13'33.6

pretty damn obvious that if Keino had skipped that prelim 13'26.6 he wouda had enough energy in helsinki to blast away from the field from 2 or even 3k out & screw what ron was doing pace-wise

ron that year didn't show any superiority to Keino in a fast race, quite the opposite

incredibly, Keino was still running in november !!!

he was no ozzie & had no business running in november on the track !!!

in auckland, in what appears to have been a 3 man race !!!, Keino, i assume mostly if not all of it solo'ed it to run 13'24.2WR !!!

even more incredible is that the 2 mile split of 8'33+ was on for 13'18 !!!

Keino, in november, in one of the most brutal seasons in running history broke the 5k WR likely mostly if not all solo !!!

he was the real star of the '65 season over 5k...

yes

because of the mile wr not the 1500

he didn't just sliver the record but took 1/2s off it, from '54.1 down to '53.6

however, the splits show that jazy's run was hugely more awesome then snell's

snell got fast pacing, starting out in 56.4, admittedly too quick but quicker better than slower

he then had 57.7 for 1'54.1, before fading with 60.2 & 59.8

snell had huge advantage of fast pace to 880 & hang on with only 59.8 finish

he was worth at least 1s off that at even pace

jazy's splits were 57.5, 59.2, 60.9 !!! & then kicking in a 56.2 !!!

jazy finished like a runaway truck !!!

that was nearer 2s quicker at even pace

the golden rule of analysis is that if you have a kick anywhere near the end, you have huge amount of energy left which you didn't utilise before the kick

jazy had a huge kick left !!!

snell didn't & was slower in last lap than average race pace

i'd offer ideally :

- snell ~ 3'52-high

- jazy ~ 3'51-high

there was a 1s difference in ability over them at mile & that is ~ mathematically same over 1500

utterly clueless

you really have no idea about the sport do you ?!

elliott won 880 gold in '58 in 1'49.3 off nonsense 58.8 then 50.5 !!!

that was worth 1'45-low for 800 & that was after rounds !!!

& he was just 20y at the time & running 800y off miler training !

& it didn't look great conditions either on brief vid

snell ran his 1'443 on nonsense grass track which couda been steamrollered to granite hard return

i have no hesitation in reckoning elliott was in as good 800 shape in '60 as snell ever was & elliott was training for the mile

is this a joke ?

jazy ran seriously quicker actually & intrinsically than snell at mile which snell woud run more often in relative frequency than jazy who wouda run 1500s !

jazy ousted the new zealander at his own non-metric

worth separate reply & you asked it later anyways

better to educate you then

is this a joke ???

do you not comprehend that there is no kick left the quicker the mile gets ???

how is snell's kick v jazy getting when time at bell is :

3'00 ?

2'57.5 ??

2'55.0 ???

2'52.5 ????

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:The 1964 Olympics was the only time he was in good shape to race longer distances. At all other times he was only in good 800m shape yet he held the mile record

utter nonsense

he ran wr mile initially in '62 but again on grass as the 880y with unknown level of steamrollering to hammer it to possible granite

however, that run was off jog at start in 61.3, so even if hugely illegally hard grass track way more than 65% energy return as mandated legit for ~ past 30+y, snell still had claim to be mile wr contender in '62

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:The 1964 Olympics was the only time he was in good shape to race longer distances. At all other times he was only in good 800m shape yet he held the mile record

utter nonsense

he ran wr mile initially in '62 but again on grass as the 880y with unknown level of steamrollering to hammer it to possible granite

however, that run was off jog at start in 61.3, so even if hugely illegally hard grass track way more than 65% energy return as mandated legit for ~ past 30+y, snell still had claim to be mile wr contender in '62

The definitive Michel Jazy.

[quote]calculo wrote:

the above race circunstances makes little sense

it was run on 30th june which is still mid-season, so not exactly a climax when 1/2 season to go

he ran numerous other races rest of year but all in very slow times

[quote]

Um, ever hear of the refractory period?

ukathleticscoach wrote:So Jazy was better than Snell over 1500m because he beat his record... Surely your would a couda stars show he could have easily beat his 1500m time

this is hugely mathematically important point

think logic

you did it once flashingly in your life when some chump-change drivelled on about

~

"ATP is free energy from phosphagen system immune from whatever blasting outta blocks in a 800"

you hugely impressively countered :

~

"if it's all immune, then why didn't the Big-Man blast out in 21.0 instead of 23.5 in his 1'40.91 ?"

that really was the most 4-barrels retort i ever saw !

& i don't impress easy...

someone said :

People have to remember, Snell's PB for the 1500m is 3:37.6 which was en route to his mile WR

work with it, learn some more logic which might inspire you to above giddy heights

snell had 3'37.6 en-route to 3'54.1wr

wr was elliot's 3'35.6

proportioned en-route is 3'38.2, so he ran fast to 1500 & faded which is no shock as went out in 56.4 on dirt !

i cringe to think what Ryun couda run for 1500 or mile if offered 54.6 in dusseldorf !!!

anyhows, we use the 3'37.6 as still somewhat proportionate to 3'54.1 finish

how to analyse & convert this en-route 3'37.6 ?

learn some logic to tighten up your thinking to possibly once in a lifetime to approach the awesome nugget you once did

we "know" that general mile to 1500 conversion used is :

1.08

we know that the ratio of distances is 1500/1609.344

the key now is the logic to apply to convert an en-route 1500 time in a decent mile to a "stand-alone" !!!

these are type of big issues you need to do for yourself to improve your understanding of the sport

you clearly won't figure this one out, but perhaps miraculously it'll inspire you to another similar nugget to above in future, which even if i have to wait a decade for, it'll be worth a nod, so i'll offer you some inspiration

please apply below logic-derived formula ascertained from only 3 pieces of info in :

- 1.08

- 1500

- 1609.344

to snell's 3'37.6 en-route to solid 3'54.1wr compared to elliot's then 3'35.6wr & then compare how close snell was provisionally in 1500 ability

1500 Intrinsic = 1500 en-route * ( 1609.344 / 1500 ) / 1.08

calculo wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:[

utterly clueless

So Snell never lost to Elliot over 800m, even in the late 1950s when he was a nobody, yet you accuse somebody else of being "utterly clueless." You are utterly clueless.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

calculo wrote:

utterly clueless

So Snell never lost to Elliot over 800m, even in the late 1950s when he was a nobody, yet you accuse somebody else of being "utterly clueless." You are utterly clueless.

When did Snell race against Elliot over 800m/880yards?

You really are hopelessly inaccurate sometimes . June in France is almost certainly going to be a faster time than November in Auckland. To run a WR in November after the peak of Olympics is very impressive. You extended the same courtesy to your same heroes at other times, I think only recently you defended Mo's post WC times on this basis. Auckland has a lot of cross breezes coming from the Southern Ocean through the Tasmania sea on one side and strong winds from the Pacific Ocean on the other side the city. The truth is at Tokyo was in at least 3:36 (pre synthetic) shape, He had 5 races in the previous 7 days, he ran 3:38 in the semi, and ran 3:38 after 3 jogging laps on a chewed up track without a pacer or any pace. As for the 800m only days earlier, 1:45.1 on a chewed up track without pacers, in your own words 1secs for pacing and at least 1secs for the chewed up track 1:43.1 Jazy hasn't got anywhere near that speed.

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:The 1964 Olympics was the only time he was in good shape to race longer distances. At all other times he was only in good 800m shape yet he held the mile record

utter nonsense

he ran wr mile initially in '62 but again on grass as the 880y with unknown level of steamrollering to hammer it to possible granite

however, that run was off jog at start in 61.3, so even if hugely illegally hard grass track way more than 65% energy return as mandated legit for ~ past 30+y, snell still had claim to be mile wr contender in '62

This is the stupidest thing that anyone has ever posted on Letsrun. It shows that you nothing about science.

Heath wrote:

Just a hypothetical. I understand the should have, would have comments lol.

Should have Jazy competed with Snell in the 1500m at the 1964 Olympics?

He more than likely would have won a medal.

It would have been difficult to match that final sprint finish from Snell.

Jazy was pushing the pace in the 5000m final while Schul sat back and waited. Schul was even dropped for a short period when the pace lifted.

Jazy could have won if he followed the leaders till the last 200m with his kick.

Jazy ran fast enough in 1960, to win and beat Snell in 1964.

Well, Michel did write his autobiography and that should be the last word on the lots of things being discussed on this thread.

I have a copy - or two - but my French isn't up to the job

portsea57 wrote:

Well, Michel did write his autobiography and that should be the last word on the lots of things being discussed on this thread.

I have a copy - or two - but my French isn't up to the job

I would love to hear Jazy's thought on 1964.

At one point Jazy was one of the most popular people in France.