Who was/is Craig Virgin?

Zat0pek wrote:

I also must take up for Craig on the arrogance comment. I also have had the pleasure of spending some time with him on several occaisions. Sure, Craig has a lot confidence and a lot of belief in himself. He should. He had some serious stones and would race anybody, anywhere. Itakes a certain mentality to compete as he did and that mentality is one of the big reasons he developed as he did. Some guys around today could learn from his attitude.

Never met Craig Virgin, though I have always known he was a stud. I know that Tom Derderian didn't think much of him. He writes some not-so-nice things about Virgin in his Boston Marathon history. If you have it, check the year when Virgin ran the race for more on this. Suffice it to say that Tom thinks Craig is something of a politician -- all flash and no substance on a personal level. I can't judge the man, never having met him.

What I'm wondering is why Virgin retired? I figured he would have torn up masters records and spit them out. Was it some chronic injury?

ray wrote:

Going from memory here which isn't very good, but didn't Virgin make one of the best moves ever (tactics) in a 10km at Eugene? I seem to recall he couldn't shake a guy in a slow race, left it too late but knowing he would be outkicked, came to a dead stop with 120m to go. the guy behind jams on the brakes and Virgin takes off like a bat out of hell, wins going away as the guy just can't recover on time.....Am I close???

I don't recall that instance, but I do recall when he tried a similar tactic against Mirits Yifter in the World Cup. Yifter the Shifter was just drafting off of Virgin throughout the race, knowing that he could outkick Virgin over the last couple hundred meters. Suddenly, Virgin slowed up and came to a dead stop. Yifter, however, just calmly continued to jog past Virgin, and then completely blew him away over the last two hundred meters.

To answer the original question for the benefit of the youngsters in our audience: Virgin was kind of like that Prefontaine guy that everyone talks about, except that Virgin ran faster times and had a much more distinguished running career.

Just the facts wrote:

ray, You may be confusing your story with the WC race in which Virgin broke away from the field with the exception of Eithiopian Myrus Yifter ("Yifter the Shifter"), known for his searing kicks. :51-:53 was standard for 5K & 10K races. Virgin tried everything to shake him. Surges, steady grind, etc. He finally started slowing to force Yifter to take the lead. Yifter would have none of this and slowed to a crawl as well, never leaving Virgin's shoulder. Virgin finally stopped to force Yifter to go around. He did, but continued at a liesurely pace. This all took place well more than 800 from the finish. Virgin finally took the lead back, but Yifter finished in :52 and closed the deal. I have not heard the story you told before, but maybe someone else has.

I guess "Just the facts" beat me to the punch on this story.

JAM, Virgin's AR at Nationals in 1979 Herb Lindsey was nowhere to be found. It was hot. It was windy. He nearly lapped the entire field. I believe Rick Rojas was the only one not lapped - and Virgin was closing in fast.

You may have confused the 80 Oly Trials where Lindsey was duped by the press into believing he could hang with Virgin and foolishly followed to a certain blow-up by the 5k mark.

Ray-

Virgin did run a 10K on the track in 1984 against Canadian Paul McCloy in Eugene. Back then not many people knew about McCloy (that was before he ran sub 28 min. 10K and finished top 10 at World Cross). Virgin and Ron Tabb agreed they would take the pace out and run together, but Tabb dropped and Virgin tried to drop McCloy but couldn't get rid of him. So, for 20 laps all you saw was Virgin with with this confused look on his face wondering who the hell this guy was, and McCloy staying with Virgin looking like his head was going to roll off his shoulders. McCloy was not the smoothest runner. In the end, with 100 meters to go, both of them were lapping runners, and Virgin took the inside lane and McCloy had to go around a big knot of runners they were lapping, but still beat Virgin to the finish line. They both ran 28:11, and it was one memorable race. Virgin crossed the line and looked at McCloy with this stare that said "Who the hell are you?"

Hinderloppet wrote:

and McCloy staying with Virgin looking like his head was going to roll off his shoulders. McCloy was not the smoothest runner.

That's an understatement!

My post was not to completely bash Virgin, I mean he did accomplish amazing things, I'm just trying to state that there's better things to come in the post-collegiate world for our guys who are in college right now. No one can argue how tough the comp. is today, as it should be, runners get better as time goes on.

Another Virgin story, which a friend of mine who was a 2:14 marathoner back in the day swears is true - They were running Bay-to-Breakers in the late 70's or early 80's and there was a group of about a dozen guys who hit the top of the big hill at about the two mile mark in just over 9:00. Virgin, who was in the lead, yells "Stop!" and they all stop. Virgin turns around and says "look at this" and they all turn around and can see most of the 20,000-25,000 runners at that time coming at them. After about five seconds Virgin says "alright, let's go" and they all turn around and took off racing again.

GORDO wrote:

Seriously, StatsRus, "back in the day when an (NCAA) cross country title meant something?"

Torres beat a field that was deeper than the field that Virgin beat,

1975 NCAA XC at Penn State 6 miles

1 28:23 Virgin IL

2 28:38 Nick Rose W.Kentucky (GB)

3 28:52 John Ngeno WSU (KEN)

4 28:57 Terry Williams OR

5 28:58 Paul Stemmer PSU

6 29:00 James Munyala UTEP (KEN)

7 29:02 Paul Cummings BYU

8 29:03 James Karuki UTEP (KEN)

9 29:05 Dave Merrick Penn

10 29:05 Steve Bolt Bama

11 29:06 Paul Bannon Memphis State (?)

12 29:10 Herb Lindsey MSU

13 29:12 Tony Staynings W.Kentucky (GB)

14 29:12 Josh Kimeto WSU (KEN)

15 29:13 Curt Alitz Army

16 29:14 Alex Kasich WVU

17 29:14 George Malley PSU

18 29:15 Terry Cotton AZ

19 29:17 Mick O'Shea Prov. (IRE)

20 29:18 Kurt Beckman WSU

21 29:19 John Treacy Prov. (IRE)

22 29:19 Jeff Wells Rice

23 29:19 Billy Donakowski MI

24 29:22 Lionel Ortega NM

25 29:23 Antonio Zuniga UTEP (MEX)

29 29:30 Gregg Meyer MI

37 29:38 Samson Kimobwa WSU (KEN)

38 29:30 Niall O'Shaughnessy (IRE)

56 29:53 Steve Lacy WI

57 29:54 Ralph King UNC

74 30:02 Tom Wysocki NV

77 30:05 Henry Marsh BYU

84 30:10 Marc Hunter KSU

90 30;14 Ray Flynn ETSU (IRE)

143 30:40 Craig Masback Princeton

160 30:47 Chris Fox Auburn

165 30:49 Bruce Bickford NE

174 30:54 Ron Addison TN

175 30:54 Matt Centrowitz OR

224 31:30 Kyle Heffner TXA&M

225 31:31 Jon Sinclair CSU

266 33:31 Randy Melancon AR

1976 NCAA XC at North Texas State 10k

1 28:06 Henry Rono WSU (KEN)

2 28;16 Samson Kimobwa WSU (KEN)

3 28:26 Craig Virgin IL

4 28:30 Herb Lindsey MSU

5 28:34 John Treacy Prov (IRE)

6 28:39 Wilson Waigwa UTEP (KEN)

7 28:43 Naill O'Shaughnessey AR (IRE)

8 28:46 Sam Maritim UTEP (KEN)

9 28:49 Rudy Chapa OR

10 28:52 James Munyala UTEP (KEN)

11 28:54 Jim Peterson Gtwn

12 28:55 Josh Kimeto WSU (KEN)

13 28:57 Thom Hunt AZ

14 28:58 Bruce Bickford NE

15 29:00 Kip Sirma UTEP (KEN)

16 29:01 Terry Williams OR

17 29:03 Art Redhair BYU

18 29:04 Terry Cotton AZ

19 29:06 Greg Meyer MI

20 29:07 George Malley PSU

21 29:09 John Flora NE

22 29:10 Bob Hodge Lowell

23 29:11 Tony Staynings W.Kentucky (GB)

24 29:12 Henry Marsh BYU

25 29:14 Billy Donakowski MI

28 29:17 Steve Lacy WI

33 29:22 Ron Addison TN

34 29:23 Eric Hulst Irvine

38 29:26 Steve Plascensia MN

41 29:29 Carey Pinkowski Vill.

47 29:36 Kirk Pfeffer CO

51 29:41 Matt Centrowitz OR

55 29:45 Don Clary OR

74 29:51 Ralph Serna Irvine

115 30:09 Dan Schlesinger Yale

132 30:16 Pete Pfitzinger Cornell

169 30:36 Craig Masback Princeton

170 30:37 Randy Jackson WI

171 30:37 Kyle Heffner Tex A&M

182 30:44 Ron Tabb Cent.MO

187 30:46 Steve Scott Irvine

203 30:55 Mark Nenow KY

Hey, Malmo-

Just curious if Kasich outkicked you 1975 or were you gaining on him at the end and ran out of room?? I figured you would have the footspeed over Alex, but then he is one tough Serb!

Old timer, Although not as amusing as your story, I'll give you my only CV story. In the mid 80's, when the Gasparilla (Tampa) 15K was a big time affair, they started a 5K with it as well. This shorter race was more my speed so I entered. CV was in the field starting a come back after a long time off running. He took off from the gun. I went with him & by 800 into the race no one else was around. He kept trying to get a look to see who I was, but I stayed directly behind him and about 5-8 meters back. He got tired of trying, so he left the road onto the sidewalk and began staring me down in the glass reflections of the tall downtown buildings. It was an out-and-back course and I hung through 1/2 way. At the turn-around he glared at me, realized I was a nobody, and took off in a near sprint. I was already over my head and could make little chase. He ran away for the win. He was the cagey vet even when coming back from a long lay-off, well, that and about 100 times more talented.

was that the Kasich that ran for WVU?

StatsRus,

Thanks for posting the results of the '75-'76 NCAA Championships. The fields were even deeper -- in fact, much deeper -- than I would have guessed.

i went to a camp in the summer of 2000 with a group of Illinois runners to Virgin's house. Virgin was really cool to learn about and liked to talk about running for hours. which is especially cool if you are a high school runner talking with him. He showed us some videos of his races. and he sure made it clear how good he was. he let us know what he ran. some of us didnt even know anything about the 10k at the time (being high school runners running the 1600 and 3200m races). he did talk about himself alot. But in the end he autographed pictures of him running the 10k at the olympic games and told us if we ever wanted to call we could. I feel he comes off cocky bc he always ran on teams where he was the best runner.(ie high school and in college at UofI) he was good since he started running and didnt have to train nearly as hard to do it. part of this he says he owes to being raised on a farm. The bottom line is yes he is cocky, but also a great runner. so who cares. as goes for the rest of the runners people on the boards bash. everyone has to say whether this guy is better than the next. i think they are all great runners in their own respect. ritz, torres, virgin all in the same class of tough ass runners who will bring it to the competition on the ncaa level and the world level. the end.

Average_Joe wrote:

Never met Craig Virgin, though I have always known he was a stud. I know that Tom Derderian didn't think much of him. He writes some not-so-nice things about Virgin in his Boston Marathon history. If you have it, check the year when Virgin ran the race for more on this. Suffice it to say that Tom thinks Craig is something of a politician -- all flash and no substance on a personal level. I can't judge the man, never having met him.

One thing about Virgin's arrogance was the fact that he was an elite runner at a time when there were basically two places to be: Boston or Eugene (Boulder was still the semi-hidden secret).

Both East and West groups had guys who were generally okay people, but the home-team-is-the-best/can-do-no-wrong idea can be tough to stomache for someone in the middle, living in the Midwest, especially if these guys regard you as some sort of talented farmboy hick...the Beverly Hillbillies in spikes. Sometimes an arrogant front is a way to protect yourself in these situations. Much like Pre when the school kids got on him for speaking mostly German when he was young and for being shorter and not good at football.

And to be blunt, there were a lot of guys hanging off (the memory of) Pre and Bill Rodgers' jocks on both coasts, fueling their egos from this star identification, which left little room for outsiders on the national scene.

Not sure if this was totally the case with Virgin (he certainly didn't fit in when he joined Athletics West and moved to Eugene), but I always sort of believed it rang true. Explains the conundrum of good guy vs. arrogant guy testimonies in this thread.

virgin also ran an 8:45 indoors on UI's ~260y track his sr yr in HS.

He was my running hero growing up in a small midwestern town about 12 miles north of Lebanon. Met him several times and found him to be gracious to his fans.

I lost track of his freshman track season and still find it hard to believe after his top 5 fnish in XC that he is nowhere to be found on the US Junior 5K and 10K lists. I guess his 13:58 against the Russians at age 17 is his Junior PR. I suppose they just ran 3M and 6M in those days outside of Olymipc years.

Virgin Fan wrote:

I lost track of his freshman track season and still find it hard to believe after his top 5 fnish in XC that he is nowhere to be found on the US Junior 5K and 10K lists. I guess his 13:58 against the Russians at age 17 is his Junior PR. I suppose they just ran 3M and 6M in those days outside of Olymipc years.

freshman at IL in 74, 14:14.3 for 5000, 28:10.8 for 6 miles

soph '75, 13:35.02 5000 (still 19, but turned 20 on Aug 2nd), 27:48.8 6 miles

jr '76, 27:59.43 10000