E-rosion wrote:
Except that 8, or so, runners out weight a horse (~1000 lbs), and they hit the trail more often.
But horses do FAR FAR more damage to trails than hikers, runners, or mountainbikers.
http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.htmlE-roison wrote:
Find another trail to run. You are hardly the first runner or group to be asked move. So, relocate.
Are you saying that because there is a precedent for asking runners or groups of them to move, it follows that these runners must relocate?
This is hardly what we need in an obesity epidemic.
M.C. Confusing wrote:
E-rosion wrote:Except that 8, or so, runners out weight a horse (~1000 lbs), and they hit the trail more often.
But horses do FAR FAR more damage to trails than hikers, runners, or mountainbikers.
Not than a pack of runners.
Parks are for people to run in. Call it a reserve if you don't want anyone to set foot in it.
Pack of runners wrote:
M.C. Confusing wrote:But horses do FAR FAR more damage to trails than hikers, runners, or mountainbikers.
Not than a pack of runners.
Yes than a pack of runners. They found 30 horses do more damage than 100 llamas. Llamas do more damage than people. Horses absolutely destroy trails compared to runners, hikers, bikers, etc.
I think you overestimate the power of online slacktivism and misunderestimate the power of civil disobedience. Equestrian types are very politically connected. HS Runner types aren’t. You can’t win legislatively. But I’m not so sure they can win either. Force them to actually arrest and prosecute your runners. That’s more work than putting up a sign saying that one class of citizens (those atop horses) have more basic rights than another class.
Oppressed in Rhode Island wrote:
tenrun wrote:just say "its not cross country practice, its just that all the kids on the xc team and the coach just happened to be using the park at the same time!"
This has been a two year battle with them. First off, this tactic will not work.
Second, we are trying to teach the kids that there is a process for opposing something like this. Sneaking around is not an option. We need to handle it in a civilized legal manner and if we lose in the end we have to accept that we will never again be allowed to practice there whether that is right or wrong.
I signed it.
How do you get fined or stopped from running in a public park?
M.C. Confusing wrote:
Pack of runners wrote:Not than a pack of runners.
Yes than a pack of runners. They found 30 horses do more damage than 100 llamas. Llamas do more damage than people. Horses absolutely destroy trails compared to runners, hikers, bikers, etc.
A Llama once bit my sister.
Good luck to the authorities in their quest to keep you off of the trails. Screw the laws. Just keep running there and see if they can stop you. I have never taken a "closed trail" sign as more than a suggestion and have never had any issues. That being said I would continue to fight them legislatively too. There is no need for stupid rules attempting to keep runners out of a park.
Oppressed in Rhode Island wrote:
tenrun wrote:just say "its not cross country practice, its just that all the kids on the xc team and the coach just happened to be using the park at the same time!"
This has been a two year battle with them. First off, this tactic will not work.
Second, we are trying to teach the kids that there is a process for opposing something like this. Sneaking around is not an option. We need to handle it in a civilized legal manner and if we lose in the end we have to accept that we will never again be allowed to practice there whether that is right or wrong.
Well then you need to teach them the reality of the world -- preserving or attaining rights is not typically achieved by petitions, especially on-line petitions signed by a bunch of people who don't live in Rhode Island, don't fund the park with their taxes, and are not impacted at all by who uses the park. There is no lack of examples in history to study regarding how change can be effected. Perhaps you should have your runners study some of those examples and make suggestions about what to do, AND THEN HAVE THEM ACTUALLY DO IT.
I read in the petition that a coach was fined a large amount of money. Was the fine litigated in a court of law? Did anyone bother to seek out a high powered attorney to litigate it pro bono, because either he or she is a runner or his or her child is on a cross country team? Is the fine legitimate?
Instead of running in the park, have teams walked in the park, passed out fliers to get support, talked to other park users to gain their support? That cannot be illegal (First Amendment). Perhaps you could run while passing out fliers and kill two birds with one stone.
How about getting a bunch of teams to simply stand on sections of the trails to make them impassable to equestrian riders? Make everyone's life difficult.
Who controls the park and whose taxes fund its operations? Are elected officials responsible for it? They respond to one thing only -- votes. Have protested protested outside elected officials offices?
At the end of the day, this is running in a park. I am not saying that people should get arrested or get beaten by police sticks circa 1960s civil right protests in order to effect the change for this particular topic. But you have to do more than an online petition. Perhaps you are. But if things like those above are not working (and I am certain the students themselves can come up with far more creative ideas than I can if they actually care), an on-line petition will not work.
Social media can bring great change, but it can only go so far. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and actually make a sacrifice to get something you really want but face opposition in achieving it. Now that would be a good lesson for any teenager in 2017 to learn.
How do the teams behave when they are in the park? I run in Central Park in NYC, and on occasion I have been quite annoyed by large training groups that take up entire pathways / lanes and fail to narrow their width for oncoming runners. It's as if they are training for the Olympics and think everyone needs to get out of the way for their "more important" training, even if half of them look as if they can barely do a 10k. If teams run in big packs that are not respectful of other users, you won't have much support from other park patrons.
Do it anyway wrote:
I have never taken a "closed trail" sign as more than a suggestion and have never had any issues.
If that is true you are an ass, they close trails for portions of time to help preserve it for everyone.
Oppressed in Rhode Island wrote:
tenrun wrote:just say "its not cross country practice, its just that all the kids on the xc team and the coach just happened to be using the park at the same time!"
This has been a two year battle with them. First off, this tactic will not work.
Second, we are trying to teach the kids that there is a process for opposing something like this. Sneaking around is not an option. We need to handle it in a civilized legal manner and if we lose in the end we have to accept that we will never again be allowed to practice there whether that is right or wrong.
thats the kind of teaching that leads to President Trump. Take the higher ground and let the others reap the rewards.
I am guessing that the teams scare the horses, or that they are quite noisy with their large groups of runners.
I run on some trails that are shared use with riders and I always step off to the side of the trail or completely stop when a horse is coming.
It's annoying, but the safety of the rider is more important than a minute of my run.
The solution is obvious - take a horse with you on team practise!
Danny Bandana wrote:
I am guessing that the teams scare the horses, or that they are quite noisy with their large groups of runners.
I run on some trails that are shared use with riders and I always step off to the side of the trail or completely stop when a horse is coming.
It's annoying, but the safety of the rider is more important than a minute of my run.
This comes off like I am supporting the horse riders, I am not, I think the teams should be able to use the park too.
I think someone else said it first, but I bet that the horse riders have more money and are better connected in the community.
I hate to say this because I did run in high school XC but the truth is that a rule is a rule is a rule.One trail at one park is not going to damage a runner or a season.We are starting to act too entitled, even for our kids.Cyclists want the whole lane.Some runners want to be able to be free to run through golf courses, cemeteries and closed roads.Some cars breeze along the shoulder to avoid the traffic, then cut in sharply,inconveniencing or scaring another driverNo.A rule is a rule.You note it and find another place.That is what good people do. And what has always separated runners from other rougher sports is that many are good people.Let's keep that.
Oppressed in Rhode Island wrote:
The State of Rhode Island had waged war on XC teams having practice in a public park:
https://www.change.org/p/janet-coit-tell-rhode-island-dem-to-let-our-kids-run-at-goddard?recruiter=20063690&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink
I would have supported the petition but I noticed at least one typo in it. I don't know how you take the time to write out something this long and clearly important (in the writer's mind) and still have typos in it. Shows a lack of dedication therefore I will not be singing.
Also, screw people with horses, they should all be locked up as animal abusers as should anybody else who thinks they can own a "pet."
How about you talk to the trail manager that the team will volunteer to participate in trail work projects that help mitigate erosion throughout the year? Most park systems desperately need volunteers to get trail work done, so perhaps this would be a good compromise. It's hard to justify keeping the people who volunteer to maintain and build the trails off of them.
M.C. Confusing wrote:
E-rosion wrote:Except that 8, or so, runners out weight a horse (~1000 lbs), and they hit the trail more often.
But horses do FAR FAR more damage to trails than hikers, runners, or mountainbikers.
http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html
The author of the piece at the link talks about "sweat equity" and mountain bike and equestrian groups being more likely to invest their time and effort in trail maintenance projects. Perhaps cross country teams could volunteer for trail maintenance projects during the off season. It would be much harder to kick out a group that has invested their time and effort in maintaining the trail.
Maybe it is an issue of safety that caused the change in policy. Perhaps instead of prohibiting runners from the trail, some guidelines could be established to allow safe sharing of the trails. I would think that calling out when approaching a horse from behind, passing with care only when the rider is prepared, and yielding to horses approaching from the opposite direction would be some basic guidelines. My wife has horses and is more skilled and more knowledgeable than average. But even professional riders on "safe" mounts can be thrown if the horse spooks. A lot of riders seem to overestimate their skill and under estimate the horse's inclination to react to stimuli.
If the trail is a loop, perhaps having equestrians go one way and pedestrians the other would help. On one mountain bike/hiking trail that I use, cyclists are advised to go one direction around the loop and hikers/runners the other direction. That policy seems to work well to prevent collisions. I have never seen a cyclist going the wrong direction, but I have seen hikers (usually with their dog) doing so.
Good luck with your petition.