Now the kids struggling with CV pace. Have they been running a lot in the summer? If not you have to lower the volume and distance and gradually build up to where you want them. I do this with newer kids or those who didnt run in the summer.
Now the kids struggling with CV pace. Have they been running a lot in the summer? If not you have to lower the volume and distance and gradually build up to where you want them. I do this with newer kids or those who didnt run in the summer.
If your kids race twice a week, much of my advice goes out the window. You cannot add in a workout on top of two races. If they race twice a week, those ARE their two workouts. I would suggest maximizing those days by making sure they run a long "cooldown" after the race (not the typical 10 min jog). They need to start this pretty quickly after they finish the race, not 30 minutes later. If they are experienced runners, you could add in a little shorter, faster work after the race- maybe some repeat hill reps or a few 200's or 30 second pickups, followed by the long cooldown. My top boys usually get in 8-9 miles on race day. Teams get into trouble when they race a lot and their mileage starts tanking- easy light pre-meet day, 5-6 miles total on race day, short recovery day after the races, you get the picture. We do not get too worked up about being fresh and rested before every race, especially the early and mid season ones that don't really matter that much.
I am not necessarily against newbies racing more often than once a week. Given that they are learning how to race, how to spread out their effort over 5K, etc, more practice at racing can be useful. I do not do this with my more experienced kids, however. If you are forced to race twice a week with your varsity kids, you could try doing different things on the less important race day- run a controlled, slower than 5K pace thru the half way mark, then race the last half, pick a part of the race to work on, or something like that. Some kids don't like this stuff though- they want to RACE. I always hated doing things like this in race situations, personally, but if kids can buy into the reason for doing it, it may work. Also, if they are good enough to do things like this and still win, they don't mind it so much.
That posted roster is incomplete for Loudoun Valley. They have more boys than girls on the team. Definitely over 100 kids.
I always hear coaches at that kids can't hit tempo pace yet my kids are always able to do it.
I always explain to them about their bodies riding the edge of clearing waste products. Too fast and the workout is blown. I tell them a second or two slow is ok. Ten seconds too fast is not. We go out on a closed 1k loop in a field and I give them feedback each time they pass. I found it to be extremely rare for a kid to mess this up.
We run ours at around 5k+ 30 for about 24 minutes. They are struggling to not go too fast early on but by the end they are feeling it.
The CV stuff seems slow to me for intervals but as I watch my athletes do some of the workouts it's definitely not easy for them. I'm also waiting to see how they respond to it.
In the meantime my league has way too many freakin meets. Our load lightens up next week so I can get back to work with them.
LoCoPerson wrote:
That posted roster is incomplete for Loudoun Valley. They have more boys than girls on the team. Definitely over 100 kids.
I just didn't bother linking the girls' roster. But, it's still not as big as the 130 that H.S. Coach Here was talking about.
HS Coach here wrote:
I use his training with my HS team and we have been quite successful with it. In the 4 years we have had the program, we have gone from 1 kid making the state meet to 2x state champs (boys) and 3x state runners-up (girls).
Loudoun Valley fits this description exactly.
Boys State champs '15 and '16
Girls State runner up '14, '15, and '16
I was at a clinic where he was a speaker.
Two things I would point out:
1. He said CV Pace is basically the pace you can hold for 32-25 minutes. For some, it is faster than 10k pace. Others, it is slower. Depends on the ability of the runner.
2. The most accurate calculator of your current CV Pace is the difference between a 3200 time and a 1600 time. He has different calculations for 200/400 sprinters, 400/800 mid-distance, and 800/1600 runners. He said that if your 1600m time isn't up to speed, but your 3200 time is at it's target, the CV pace in the workouts will be slightly faster because you need to be running faster. If your 1600 time is up to where it is supposed to be, but your 3200 is lagging, then the CV Pace will be slower because your endurance will need more work.
So if you have a 4:40/10:00 athlete, his CV pace will be 5:20/mi.
If you have a 4:40/10:20 athlete, his CV pace will be 5:40/mi.
slopenguinrunner wrote:
1. He said CV Pace is basically the pace you can hold for 32-25 minutes . For some, it is faster than 10k pace. Others, it is slower. Depends on the ability of the runner.
32-35 minutes, right?
This is true, during track season. He has formulas to estimate CV pace for kids who run various events, which take into account their strengths and weaknesses, and stamina is usually (but not always) the weakness! But the formulas aren't perfect. Using your example, say you have a 4:40/9:50 kid to go along with your other 4:40 milers. His CV pace is going to be 5:10, despite the same mile time as the other two boys. That's a pretty big difference, so the formulas are really helpful. Another example: take two boys who have both run low 15's for 5K in cross. On the track, one has both a faster mile (12 seconds faster) and 2 mile time ( 10 seconds faster) on the track than the other. The slower miler/2 miler kid calculates a slightly faster CV pace than the faster miler/2miler kid. In real life, they can run together on CV reps. But in cross country, using their 5K race pace works pretty well. Longer events are better to use to get an accurate CV pace, generally. Also, for your really slow, 30 minute type 5k kids, their CV pace is not much slower at all than their 5K pace (since CV pace is roughly 32- 35 min race pace).
lambardi. wrote:
slopenguinrunner wrote:1. He said CV Pace is basically the pace you can hold for 32-25 minutes . For some, it is faster than 10k pace. Others, it is slower. Depends on the ability of the runner.
32-35 minutes, right?
Derp. Yes. 32-35 minutes. Typo on my part.
HS Coach here wrote:
This is true, during track season. He has formulas to estimate CV pace for kids who run various events, which take into account their strengths and weaknesses, and stamina is usually (but not always) the weakness! But the formulas aren't perfect. Using your example, say you have a 4:40/9:50 kid to go along with your other 4:40 milers. His CV pace is going to be 5:10, despite the same mile time as the other two boys. That's a pretty big difference, so the formulas are really helpful. Another example: take two boys who have both run low 15's for 5K in cross. On the track, one has both a faster mile (12 seconds faster) and 2 mile time ( 10 seconds faster) on the track than the other. The slower miler/2 miler kid calculates a slightly faster CV pace than the faster miler/2miler kid. In real life, they can run together on CV reps. But in cross country, using their 5K race pace works pretty well. Longer events are better to use to get an accurate CV pace, generally. Also, for your really slow, 30 minute type 5k kids, their CV pace is not much slower at all than their 5K pace (since CV pace is roughly 32- 35 min race pace).
I would also add that, in his presentation, he also used examples of doing 400s at CV pace.
I often did this with JV boys and girls, but at Daniels' T pace back when I used to coach (I wasn't familiar with Schwartz's research until the last few years). I personally thought it was always better to give kids that were new to running a workout that was more manageable mentally. Some kids don't quickly understand that even pacing means increasing the effort lap after lap. Break it up to one lap at a time, you are at least getting the desired physiological effect.
HS Coach here wrote:
Also, for your really slow, 30 minute type 5k kids, their CV pace is not much slower at all than their 5K pace (since CV pace is roughly 32- 35 min race pace).
Yes, I noticed that my 30:XX 5K runners CV pace & 5K pace were the same...along with their daily runs too! They simply don't have gears or the ability to go faster for any amount of endurance-speed.
I often have them do a modified tempo run of 1 X 10:00 at Tempo Pace (described as "comfortably hard") + hills (4 X :30 uphill), then--if they're able to--something like 4 X 100 on the track.
I figured they need up-tempo pace, some strength, & some speed.
Honestly, with kids as slow as 30 mins for 5K, ANYTHING they do will make them faster, as long as they don't get hurt. The main thing is doing something every day and increasing the volume they can handle. Hill reps are good because they build leg strength. They don't have to be super fast hill reps either. Easy runs, run-walk (we do a lot of this early season with the newbies because I can't stand to see them slog along at 12-13 minute mile pace), strides, hill reps, bodyweight circuits, etc. Try to get them fit enough to actually run every day and then work on more advanced training. Keep at it. We had a boy last year who started the season running 36? mins at our time trial and by the end of the season ran 24? minutes. I thought that was pretty good.
From Tinman's Website:
Tinman, can you devise a generic training schedule for me?
by The Slow & The Furious » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:56 pm
Hi Tinman,
I am 36 y.o. and a mid-pack runner. I started running in 2004 and achieved my best times in 2005-2006 (after 1.5-2 yrs of training), going down from 45:00+ to 39:20 10K, 21:30 to 18:45 5K, and 1:50 to 1:28 Half Marathons. Since then my race times have PLATEAUED (the last three 10Ks were a tad under 40:00, last three 5Ks between 18:55-19:10, all in the last 12 months). I also had a couple of failed attempts at marathon: both poor race times during marathon prep and general fatigue/emotional flatness have caused me to defer my marathon from one year to another.
Can you help me to devise a weekly training schedule that suits my capabilities? First of all, I’d like to be fit all year around and would like to do well in races ranging from 5K to Marathon. Secondly, I don’t believe that somebody could reach their genetic potential after only 2-3 years of training. Hence, I need your advice in order to get out of the rut !
Due to work & family commitments, I can only run 3x 45-60 minutes and 2x 30-40 minutes during weekdays. On weekends, probably I can afford between 60-90 minutes on Saturday and 90-120 minutes on Sunday (depending on family commitments).
Thanks in advance.
TS&F -
Each week during the "off season" - meaning when you are not racing or not much, do the following:
1) CV Fartlek - 50-60 minutes, including 20 minutes of pickups at CV effort. Example, 10 x 2 minutes at CV pace (effort), jog 1-2 minutes between pickups. Do 4 x 30 seconds, too, at about 1-mile pace (effort), jogging 90 seconds between each pickup.
2) Long Tempo (a.k.a. Tinman Tempo) - 15 minutes EZ, 30-40 minutes at about 3k to 5k pace plus 1 minute per mile, 10 minutes cool down.
3) Long Run - on the weekend, run 90-120 minutes, EZ. If you feel good, pick up the pace over the last 2-3 miles to about Long Tempo (Tinman Tempo) pace.
2-3 times per week, do 4-6 x 100m at about 1-mile pace. The first one or two might be slower, until your muscle are relaxed. Don't sprint and don't force the speed. Let it come to you! Jog about 200m between each strider.
4) 3-4 times per week run 30-40 minutes, Slow and Relaxed.
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During Racing Season, do CV intervals instead of CV fartlek. Shoot for 5-6 km of reps. Example, 5-6 x 1k at CV pace (roughly 10 seconds per km over 5k race pace), jog 1 minute between reps. I recommend that you do the reps on grass, if possible. Afterward, choose between 30 second hill charges (about 4- 6 of them) at about 2-mile race-pace (go by effort), 200m reps on the flats at 1-mile pace (about 4-6 of them), jogging 200m between each, or 100m reps at 800m pace (about 4-6 of them), jogging 100m between each.
During Racing season:
You should do an intense session or race every 2-3 weeks. An example of a race substitute might be 6 x 800m at 5k pace, jog 400m recoveries.
When you compete during a given week skip the Long Tempo workout. Still do the CVs and the Long Run! But, you may have to run slower during your Long Run because your legs might be sore from racing.
If you don't run a race during a given week, do the Tinman Long Tempo Run but add hill charges or 200s at 1-mile pace, afterward. Try 4-6 reps.
-----------------------------
Do that week after week and you'll get stronger and stronger.
Good luck!
Tinman
Example:
Mon - Easy Distance + Striders
Tue - Tempo Running in one of many forms/styles + 3-4 x 200m quick
Wed - Easy Distance
Thu - Easy Distance + Striders
Fri - Stamina Reps (8-16km speed) + 3-4 x 200m quick
Sat - Easy Distance
Sun - Long Run
Mon - Easy Distance + Striders
Tue - Fartlek, including 30 seconds to 3 minutes reps at 3k to 10k speed + short sprints or striders
Wed - Easy Distance
Thu - Easy Distance + Striders
Fri - Stamina Reps (different than last week's) + hill reps
Sat - Easy Distance
Sun - Long Run
--------------------------------------------
This may be a 2-week cycle that I could prescribe for a runner when they are in the middle of the buildup toward a peak race. The exact composition of the workouts varies with the runner's background, current fitness, specific talents (speed vs endurance, for example), and date of their goal race. I select different types of workouts, at different intensities, in different amounts, based on how far the runner is from the goal race. If the runner needs to have a semi-peak, I have to increase the pressure applied to the runner 3-6 weeks before the peak race and then reduce the total stress in the last 3 weeks. It's my belief that most workouts in the last 3 weeks will be either shortened in length, if high quality is needed, or the intensity is reduced, if endurance is needed.
It's both an art and a science to know how to apply the concepts well for each runner, and it takes a balance between a big-picture view and a focus on the present situation. I ask myself questions, in order to construct the best workouts for runners at the moment. "What is the runner's profile? (talents, skills, strengths, weaknesses) "What is the runner's time-frame? (how long will it be before they need to be in top form for a big race?) What are the runner's external stresses? (what external factors influence the runners training, such as job, family, school, etc.?) What does the runner enjoy? (Do they prefer fartlek to measured distance intervals, for example?) How will the workout I prescribe for tomorrow be influenced by the workouts of today or yesterday? and "How will the workout tomorrow influence the workouts or races in the days that follow? (this is the wider view focus that keeps perspective on the fact that the consequences of workouts are not in isolated). These are just a few of the questions I ask myself, as I plan training for runners or for coaches of teams.
I think you get the idea that cookie-cutter training leads to plain results. Each runner is different. And even runners are in different situations as time passes. The external factors that a runner had last year may be different than this year. The runner may be pace 38 years of age (males) and declining in aerobic power (their heart and nerve capacity is declining about 1% every year, on average). The runner may have a residual injury that restricts volume or quality of training this year that was not present last year or two ore more years ago. The runner may be stronger than they were last year, and therefore they can handle more volume in workouts or cycles. Seasons influence training capacity, too! It's hot and humid in the summer (unless you live on the coast somewhere, like California, Australia, New Zeland, or South Africa, and you get the good weather 90-95% of the year, compared to most runner), so the workouts must be designed differently. More recovery between reps may be needed. The pace may need to be slowed down or else the runners will burn out. If the runner lives in locations where winter is harsh, that will influence training a lot. Are you going to be able to run measured intervals at a quick pace in cold weather? Nope! A fartlek workout is a better choice! Are you going to be able to do 20 mile runs in frigid weather without big risk? Nope! Split the long run in two parts or run some of it on a treadmill! Change the pace and make the long run faster but shorter! Variables are plentiful, and each runner has different needs.
Okay, I have to get some sleep. I hope the above is helpful in some ways. One main point I want to make, in closing, is that using strict phases of training can work fine, but you lose what you don't use, and that's why phases that don't carry over certain types of training from previous phases have pitfalls. Furthermore, if you are one who likes to race, using phases is a very hard method to effectively employ. In the old days - back with Gosta Holmer or Arthur Lydiard coached champions - race seasons were not as long as they are now. Athletes raced for about 10-12 weeks and then rebuilt because they ran out of races to run.
Take care,
Tom, Tinman, Schwartz
Great thread!
I appreciate the discussion. I'm inspired by the long term approach and the moderate / underwhelming approach of the workouts and training plans described above. Fairly fit and healthy always beats very fit and injured.
As a HS coach myself, I've found CV paced intervals to be more approachable and successful for my athletes. My experience with HS kids is that threshold pace can be really tricky for "tempo runs". The only kid I've had that really nailed tempo runs from an early age became a HS all-american at 5k and had early success at longer distances in college. He had the ability to measure his efforts, while others (including state championship kids) often pushed too hard and faded. CV reps have been very helpful for the latter.
Hayseed and others, please follow up throughout the season. I wish you guys the best of luck this fall.
If you know any of his runners, you know that they run.
The prevailing (sick) mentality is to run less.
Then coaches see athletes getting hurt and they conclude that maybe that is too much running, yet, so let's run even less than that.
Guess what! Athletes are getting injuries because they are illprepared to take on the stress of a race. But we are all coached by experts and thoughtful ones at that.
Oh, but we get mile equivalents such as the geriatric pool routines. Right!
Not Tinman's athletes.
Are there any coaches on this thread or is everyone a runner seeking to better his/her own performance? Really hoping for the latter.
This stuff is not for the equivalent-milers. It is for those who get their miles one way: by running.
Here is what we did tonight.
warmup + 5x1200m (dirt path) + 4x200m (across 4 grassy mounds with max elv 20m) + cooldown + ice cream
rest exactly 2min between reps; HR: 154, 157, 163, 165, 167bpm - last 2 reps were .1mph & .2mph faster than target
walking rest for 5min prepping for the 200m reps.
Everyone's loving it.
SouthRidge wrote:
As a HS coach myself, I've found CV paced intervals to be more approachable and successful for my athletes. My experience with HS kids is that threshold pace can be really tricky for "tempo runs". The only kid I've had that really nailed tempo runs from an early age became a HS all-american at 5k and had early success at longer distances in college. He had the ability to measure his efforts, while others (including state championship kids) often pushed too hard and faded. CV reps have been very helpful for the latter.
Just a thought...
I agree with this sentiment. HS kids struggle with hitting tempos/thresholds right. But I always tried to get a progression going with LT cruise intervals over the course of 18 months. Go from 6 x 800 to 4 x 1200 to 3 x 1600 to 4 x 1600 to 2 x 3200 and then to a monitored 4800m run on a track.
I just thought there was a benefit psychologically to being able to run steady for 3 miles. Kids learn that even pacing means increasing the effort. I think that having that mental approach helps for racing.
Congratulations on your success. I don't doubt Tinman's training, but your success lies more in having 130 team members than whose training method you use.
Bob the Philosopher wrote:
Congratulations on your success. I don't doubt Tinman's training, but your success lies more in having 130 team members than whose training method you use.
With all respect to HS Coach Here, part of me thought the same thing. HS Coach Here even admits it may be more about keeping people healthy (by undertraining them) than the Tinman CV workouts themselves.
In 2011 I returned to running after a 5 year break. As a 32 year old I set out to go sub 38 on a 10K which was 5 minute slower than my PR. Having dealt with a lot of injuries I took a fairly soft approach and decided to do a training regimen based on Tinman's principles. Technology had evolved and I a Garmin 205 made me able to better monitor my pace and basically hold a little back. Most interesting for me was:
- How great I felt about slowing down tempo runs a little while making them longer than I had before. 40 min tempo runs felt so damn envigorating. In fact I don't think I ran any 20 min faster paced temporuns in the 3 month leading up to the race.
- How quickly I felt good about the CV sessions. I did exactly what he described and gradually reduced rest between intervals and gradually increased the number of intervals. BUT I always went conservative. Rather 3-5 sek pr km slower than too fast.
- How amazing to start a 10K race, keeping a pace that was actually a little faster than any of my quality sessions (actually I hadn't run at such a pace at all apart from a few striders here and there) AND being able to sustain that throughout the race. I finished at 37:58.
I was a good experience and despite running much less and much slower than in my prime, it was probably the best 6 month of running in my life.