Can someone tell me why we should be outraged if Donald Trump Jr actually had gotten dirt from the Russians?

just might be rojo wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it turns out there was no dirt.

OK, no dirt on Hillary.

Then wouldn't it be worse if together with the Russians they fabricated dirt on her to be disseminated to voters via social media?

Turns out Donny Junior lied again. There was an ex-Soviet intelligence guy at the meeting: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russian-lawyer-brought-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer-trump-team-n782851?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

So, what is the difference between this and the democrats sourcing a huge amount of the entire Steele dossier from Russians (including government officials) in digging up dirt on Trump?

The Steele dossier was commissioned by the democratic donors (originally by republican donors but then picked up by Clinton allied Fusion GPS) and sourced their information from Russian government officials. It was Oppo research on Trump. The differences as far as I can see are only these: 1. The Trump campaign met directly with Russians while the Steele dossier used several layers of intermediaries. 2. Perhaps the motivations of different groups of Russians leaking against the two different candidates (but this is very, very tricky to discern and it is not at all clear that it was not all planted disinformation) and 3. The Steele dossier actually produced something (though most of it hasn't been able to be confirmed) while the Trump attempt did not.

So you seem to understand that it's illegal to accept aid from foreign entities in an election, but you seem to not understand why that is illegal. I'll provide a quick analogy...

A police officer receives a favor from the the Mob that is the final push that enables him to become chief of police. It could even be something you see as virtuous like...providing a tip about some high profile drug dealer, which led to his promotion.

Do you feel comfortable with this? Or do you think the chief of police may end up owing the Mob some favors in return, that are not in your best interest or the best interest of the general public? You wouldn't feel like this has compromised your chief of police?

Of course there is nothing there.

Leaving aside everything in your comment that I believe is speculation, and just assuming that's all true...

"Sam robbed a bank, so it's no big deal that I tried to rob a bank. That's just what you do when you want money."

Real swamp-draining logic there.

OK. I will admit that I am cynical about politics and think both parties are swimming in muck. The idea that either party or candidate was trying to do something for the good of the country inside of themselves is pretty naive, in my opinion.

So maybe my point is that they are both bank robbers. If so, put them both in jail.

Do you have any sort of substantive point?

The Steele dossier is part of an investigation started by Republicans and then picked up by Democrats to look into Trump corruption with Russia.

The Jr thing is other evidence of Trump corruption with Russia.

The whole Trump/Russia thing is a collaboration to fabricate stories and tell lies about Hillary.

The investigations into Trump/Russia is a search for the truth.

See the difference between looking for truth and looking to spread lies?

You've changed your opinion/statement/point based on my comment...how is that not substantive enough for you?

OP,

There is a LAW that says you can not accept anything of value from a foreign power during a campaign...that "value" includes information.

To the guy who brought up Canada, yes, that would be a problem too.

The sanctity of our elections is important, and we don't want foreign powers meddling. It is a very serious thing.

OP, the fact that Russia is an enemy (and if you don't understand that, I suggest you do some research to see why) makes this much worse.

Then you have to get to the question of WHY would Russia want to help the Trunp campaign and WHY the Trump campaign is so eager to accept.

Criminal is what it is.

L L wrote:

The Steele dossier is part of an investigation started by Republicans and then picked up by Democrats to look into Trump corruption with Russia.

The Jr thing is other evidence of Trump corruption with Russia.

The whole Trump/Russia thing is a collaboration to fabricate stories and tell lies about Hillary.

The investigations into Trump/Russia is a search for the truth.

See the difference between looking for truth and looking to spread lies?

OK, if you say so.

Regulating political speech and association on the basis of whether it is truthful or lying seems not like a very workable scheme.

Still seems to me like both of them are attempts to dig up opposition research on the other candidate from Russians.

Mr. More Obvious wrote:

You've changed your opinion/statement/point based on my comment...how is that not substantive enough for you?

No I didn't.

Wait, are you saying the democrats never met with Russians? What nonsense are you talking about? Why would the state department issue a visa to "one of the countries enemies"?

What is Russia's leverage against Trump?

BobbyAxelrod wrote:

In Trump's own word - 'America First' - not my campaign.

It makes us like weak and petty in the public eye. It also now give Russian leverage against the Trump administration. Its not complicated.

And as what others have posted there is about 0% chance you did NOT vote for the orange buffoon.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

So maybe my point is that they are both bank robbers. If so, put them both in jail.

Sure sounds like a fluid position to me...

So he went to a meeting with a bunch of people. Is he suppose to know everyone at that meeting? How do you know some guy at some party you attended is not a Russian spy?

dffffff wrote:

Turns out Donny Junior lied again. There was an ex-Soviet intelligence guy at the meeting:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russian-lawyer-brought-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer-trump-team-n782851?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Here's a parallel to what we've heard from Junior so far, just to try to take the subjectivity out of it.

"No baby, I've never been to an orgy."

"Ok sure, I met with a pimp, but we were meeting to talk about charity work."

"Well, the pimp did say he was going to bring some prostitutes with him, but it turns out he lied just wanted to talk about his charity work."

"Ok, there was a prostitute there."

And you have no further questions?

Killed his political prospects wrote:

Because it's a slippery slope. Once you start colluding, you don't stop.

Because another country has dirt on you that they will use against you. You become their puppet.

the answer is that Russia has been actively working to undermind democracy all around the world, but especially in Western Europe and America. Why? Because Russia sees itself as threatened by wealthy democracies and wants to take them down a peg.

putin wants to point to chaotic democracies like ours and tell Russians 'you don't want that - you want a stable dictatorship'

and Russia wants to be able to continue invading its neighbors if they turn to the west. A broken nato and western alliances would help that.

So yeah - it's a problem when a nation that wishes harm to the US influences our elections. They want us to suffer.

That's #1

#2 is the blackmail opps this whole thing opens. The Russians know what happned. They can let Jr or Sr know that 'if you do what we say, we'll send a letter to CNN with evidence of your collusion with us.'

we don't want that.