My Quest for sub 16

Good work! If I were you I'd make the long run slower than 7:10 pace, but if you are still feeling alright the next day & not too fatigued then you should be good.

You should be able to break 16 pretty comfortably if you can do tempos at 5:35 pace. Just be careful and give yourself plenty of rest, no need to rush improvement and risk overtraining.

FocusedBison wrote:

July 16-22

Sunday 6.01mi @7:12

Monday 6.12mi @6:59

Tuesday 5.04mi @6:25

Wednesday 7.57mi @6:50

Thursday 7.08mi @6:49

Friday AM 6.01mi @6:51 PM 2.22mi @7:00

Saturday 10mi @6:56

Weekly Total 50.05mi

Ok, now we're talking. I was going to ask if taking Sunday off was a religious thing, but now I see it isn't. I'm not a fan of scheduled days off...take one once in a great while, but don't plan to take one a week.

Only other critiques/suggestions:

1) I don't see value in running a PP 2.22 mile run.

2) I would make your SHORTEST single run 6 miles...none of this 5.04 mile stuff. If you want to do a double day, make one of the runs 5 miles, but I wouldn't put on shoes for less than a 5 mile run in the summer either on a double or a single.

3) By end of summer, move that 10 miler to a 12 miler, and move all 7 milers up to 8 milers.

4) Plan to be over 60 MPW the whole summer next year and then 70+ if you can handle it (not everyone can) for the summer before your senior year.

Why don't you think he should do runs less than 5 miles?

mrtalent wrote:

Why don't you think he should do runs less than 5 miles?

This. 2.2 seems a littl short, but i see absolutely nothing wrong with a 4 mile run, especially in doubles

Now that (I think) I understand Canova, I've become a big fan. I suppose that if you abridged the traditional 6mo Canova cycle, you would be near the end of the fundamental cycle right now. I put together a two-week cycle that is modeled off of Canova's principles.Mon - recoveryTue - 8x400 @ 105% of 5k paceWed - recoveryThu - 8mi run @ 98% AeT (Aerobic Threshold, for you is 6:20)Fri - recoverySat - recoverySun - 4mi run @ 98% AnT (Anaerobic Threshold, for you is 5:55)Mon - recoveryTue - recoveryWed - 8mi run @ 98% AeTThu - recoveryFri - recoverySat - 10mi run @ 95% AeTSun - offI used to come to these sorts of threads all the time and suggest training all the time, and that was more conventional (Tinman/Daniels?) oriented training, and I was a fan of slower easy running. But lately, I have thought about training theory a lot and read old posts by Renato and I have come to a few realizations:1. Easy runs should be easy, but not jogging. The point is to recover from workouts, but there is much to be gained from easy running. The term "cardio" evokes strong (and generally negative) emotions from letsrunners, particularly because it is a term that hobbyjoggers on r/running have adopted as their word for Aerobic Development. But it is actually a primary benefit of easy running. The heart adapts to long efforts at Maximum Stroke Volume (the power of each stroke of the heart maxes out at around easy pace). Easy runs that are done at a reasonably fast pace also ensure that form does not break down, and therefore the running economy and mechanics gained from these runs translates better into racing form.2. Long runs should not be at easy pace. You should treat your long runs as a workout. I proposed a 10mi run at 95% of AeT (for you is 6:40) You actually seem to have that down, but maybe make it a bit faster. Canova has stated that his top 5000m runners do 30km (18mi) runs at this relative pace (for them it is close to 5:00/mi!) Flagpole wants you to increase your long run distance before speeding up, but I disagree. Get to 6:40/mi first, then go to 12mi. Do not go over 12mi.3. You need more easy days than you think between hard days. Most coaches (mine included) believe that after a very hard workout, you can do another one in two days. In fact, it probably takes three days to recover. You might have a Monday workout, and then Tue and Wed are easy recovery miles, and then your next hard workout is Thursday.4. Rest days are important. Canova's elites do not take rest days per se, though they do many easy days. You are in High School, so you should take a rest day no less than once every two weeks. The two-week cycle I included above has a scheduled rest day once every two weeks. Flagpole said that you should not schedule rest days, but IMO that is not true. 5. Here is a quote from John Davis, who wrote a piece on Canova's training:

During the special period, Canova is focused on a long, gradual progression towards race-pace training by building race-relevant endurance with long intervals and continuous fast runs and building race-relevant speed with short repeats. In this sense, Canova’s runners build exactly the race they want to run from the ground up. Today, most American runners seem to have a more vague vision of the race they want to run (particularly in the off-season), preferring instead to improve in increments from race to race during the competitive season, and only progressing their training in one direction: moving from slower to faster workouts.

You aren't in the special period yet, (you are in the fundamental period), but this is a great thing to keep in mind. You aren't just building a base, whatever that means. Every run you do has a purpose: it could be to prepare you for a run tomorrow, or a run in 2 months. Each phase of training you do is preparing you for the training of the next phase and so on, which ultimately prepares you for your Championship race. Your long fast runs at AeT are giving you the endurance for running 5km fast for 16min. The 400s are maintaining your speed so that you aren't lagging behind once your sprint training starts in the fall. The easy/recovery runs are preparing you for the long run the next day. When you go back to school and start training, you enter a funnel, where you are training your speed and endurance at extremes (1000s @ 90% RP, and 200s @ 110% RP), and as your season progresses, you go further into the funnel, where the endurance and speedwork converge at Race Pace (RP) for 5000m.

6. Don't get injured. This has nothing to do with the things I have read over the past few weeks, but it has everything to do with my personal experience. The training that I am experimenting with is definitely more difficult than what I have done in the past, but it can be scaled to whatever works best for you. Flagpole says that you need to be at 60mpw this year and 70mpw next year. If you get injured at 60mpw, should you go to 70 next year? NO. The extra rest between hard days with my new philosophy should help prevent injury, though. With ANY training you are doing, you need to be hyper-aware of your body. If you catch an overuse injury early, the recovery time is much less, and you can get back to running more safely.

I just typed a lot, and I have things to do. I'll check back here soon in case you have questions. In the meantime, read this:

Good day!

mrtalent wrote:

Why don't you think he should do runs less than 5 miles?

It's a waste. If you want to be a top high school 5000 meter runner, you need to run a decent amount, and a decent amount doesn't include 4 mile runs, even on a double day. Under 50 miles per week you don't need to run doubles. Once you start running doubles, no run under 5 miles is appropriate.

For singles, I agree that most of the time a run under 5 miles is not useful, but with doubles I'd say that a 3-4miler in the morning before a workout is worthwhile. It won't provide much aerobic benefit, but there are benefits to running at any time for any distance. It helps with recovery mostly.

Also, the day before a big race would be a good time for a 2-3mi shakeout run. Probably better than doing nothing.

I disagree. It's not like he did a 5mile run at 6:50 pace, he was hitting 6'25"s. That will definitely work the lungs and increase oxygen capacity. If his tempo pace is what's been indicated, this is still a pretty strenuous run. I don't exactly understand why it's 5 miles in the context of literally every other day being 7 mile+ runs, but it would be wrong to say it's a waste since there is benefit.

What if you did a 5.1 mile run? Is that as useless as a 5 mile run? What if you did 4.9 miles? Assume you have someone doubling to get 50 mpw (your minimum for doubling as mentioned). On that person's double days, they shouldn't do less than five miles per run? Let's say that person does three doubles a week. Based on your logic, this person would do three doubles of a MINIMUM of five miles per run. That's a minimum of ten miles for three days of the week. There's thirty miles, with four more days to go. To get fifty miles right on, that person would need to average five miles a day for those four days. But, a five mile run barely does anything right? Any double, regardless of how you do it, (i.e. AM- 6 miles, PM-5 miles or AM- 8 miles, PM- 3 miles) gives a benefit to your running. Why run seven times in a week when you could run eight times in a week? Or nine or ten or eleven or twelve or thirteen or even fourteen times. More running = faster running, regardless of how it you do it.

From my understanding, running a short easy double, say 4 miles, could help with recovery especially after a hard morning workout for instance.

I've read from Magness, that he even encourages 2 short runs on recovery days, like 4 + 4, just to get the blood flowing and improve recovery

Flagpole wrote:

mrtalent wrote:

Why don't you think he should do runs less than 5 miles?

It's a waste. If you want to be a top high school 5000 meter runner, you need to run a decent amount, and a decent amount doesn't include 4 mile runs, even on a double day. Under 50 miles per week you don't need to run doubles. Once you start running doubles, no run under 5 miles is appropriate.

It's a pity you weren't around to explain that to Craig Virgin, who only did 3 miles in the morning in HS.

alabama runner wrote:

For singles, I agree that most of the time a run under 5 miles is not useful, but with doubles I'd say that a 3-4miler in the morning before a workout is worthwhile. It won't provide much aerobic benefit, but there are benefits to running at any time for any distance. It helps with recovery mostly.

Also, the day before a big race would be a good time for a 2-3mi shakeout run. Probably better than doing nothing.

In my first post on this, I mentioned "summer training". Runners should not be doing workouts in their summer training. Once the season starts and you are doing doubles a couple times a week, a 4 mile run in the morning with a workout in the evening is appropriate.

Interesting. I like the concept. Could you provide some details on how you got to your AeT and AnT values / percentages?

Now that I have been practice the "DANCAN"-system in 2 years with fantastic results I here make some comments on the Canova versus DANCAN on the points you write.

1)Easy runs is the same and should be done at about 65-80 % of MHR. Steady running where the runner improves aerob capacity and at same time recovers from the quality work .

2) Long runs differs a little. Same princip that the long run should not be only slow....but....in DANCAN the long run mostly is done at the easy pace and finish at LT-pace in intervals or sustained fast run.

3) That you should need more easy days then one between quality work is only true if the quality is really demanding for example in a repetition workout at race pace 800m/ 1500m/3000m. The runner needs 48 - 72 hours recovery between quality workouts.

4) In Canova`s system there is no scheduled rest days but in DANCAN-system there is always one scheduled restday in the week where the runner recharge "batteries" to 100%.

5) Canova`s system is a phase-system that goes from slower to faster runs over the periods. DANCAN is not. In DANCAN the runner improves at the 3 most important factors for the result every week year around in a well mixed balance. Same as in the Canova system is that every run has a special purpose. The exact control of the runs have highest priority.

6) Injury? In the Canova system there is a philosophy about that you got to do high mileage to back up or prepare for the quality work and that means also a higher risk of overtraining or injury. In DANCAN the mileage is fairly low and only enough to back up the quality.

Good luck with your training !

And remember....Train, don`t strain.....or .....Less is more.

COACH J.S

Sub 16s for the 100m is weak.

jman 1, I use a modified logarithmic calculation to fin the runner's 50min race pace, and that is the AnT. AeT is 92.5% AnT. I have figured that the longer the effort, the lower percentage of those numbers you would use.

Really good coaches don't use numbers, because they know what's best from intuition. These numbers that I came up with based on my interpretation of Canova are just suggestions to help me and other runners who don't know what to do.

J.S., I have ragged on you before, but now that I understand what you're talking about, I understand your ideas and apologize for my earlier comments. I was really just annoyed at how Island thinks you're a god when in my opinion there are glaring flaws with some of the things that you have posted.

Point 1, we are in agreement. Point 2, your idea is probably best for new runners. For experienced runners who have developed a large base over the years, they should do the vast majority of the long runs fast. Point 3, you are probably right, but some HS runners have trouble with long steady runs, so it's best to take recovery like it's a workout. Point 4, you are right, but I modified it because infrequent scheduled rest days are good in my opinion. Point 5, Canova starts at high and low ends of race pace, and then slowly converges on race pace. Basically improving multiple factors of race readiness and then making them more and more relevant to the race as the season progresses. I will look into your DANCAN system. Point 6, In my experience, myself and my teammates have become injured when they did speedwork without the base to support it. People get injured from quality, not quantity, unless the quantity is ridiculous, or there is both quality and quantity. I would advise the runner to have lots of QUANTITY in the base/fundamental period, and then decrease steadily until the specific period. To second that, I agree that less is more, but in the quality running. You need a base with quantity.

"mystic summer" ~~alabama runner~~

July 23-29

Sunday=off

Monday= 6.01mi @6:55

Tuesday= 1.5mi warmup

8x800m @tempo (5:40 per mile)

1.5mi cooldown

Wednesday= 7.04mi @6:55

Thursday= 6.06 @7:01

Friday= 7.10mi @6:52

Saturday= 9.02 @6:54

Weekly total= 42.23 mi

Thank all of you guys for your input and advice I'm looking for ways to improve my training and can certainly use the advice I'm getting.

I had a bit of a down week as far as mileage goes but I will be back up around 50 next week and I will look to hold that mileage for the foreseeable future. If you see anything I could do to improve please let me know. Thank you