800 meter -speed endurance

My bad, then. From what I had read, I saw a number of your advised schedules consisting of lots of 400s "till you drop" very frequently.

Why is it that coaches give this great info, then just disappear? C'mon, what about those drills? That is called "leaving us hanging".

100m wrote:

It isn't redundant; if you read what I said, I mentioned I did pure speed workouts consistently and saw little improvement. And I know I am not at my peak potential speed, either. I did workouts of the type suggested

Sorry, I was just saying what I know from the level II book.

100m wrote:

redundant wrote:

Pure speed workouts. 2x5x40m and such. The rest should be roughly a minute for every 10m. If you want to work your top end speed, you should do between 40's and 60's, never more. You can also do 60m in's and out's, using the middle 20m as a sort of fly zone, where you maintain your speed and form, but are exerting as little effort as possible.

It isn't redundant; if you read what I said, I mentioned I did pure speed workouts consistently and saw little improvement. And I know I am not at my peak potential speed, either. I did workouts of the type suggested

Guys, it's not that simple. I actually do a workout like 5X40m early in the season, but it isn't max velocity, it's acceleration. The stronger your acceleration is, the higher the max velocity you can reach, but the longer (in distance) it takes you to get there. Your 40 meter sprint (if it starts from blocks or standing) simply isn't long enough to train max velocity; This is in fact about what I run just to get to max velocity. Charlie Francis has people do 60 meter sprints, where they accelerate for 30m, then maintain for the second 30m--and this is done early in the season when max squats are being done and max velocity is compromised. Later you do flying sprints of 20-30 meters from an acceleration lead-in of 30-50 meters (depending on your fitness and acceleration power).

A workout of 4 X 30m flying from a 30-50m lead-in will improve your max velocity (for a while). It will also improve 5K time for distance people (from improving running economy through reduced ground contact time). But this is just the neuromuscular training, while the entire process of training maximum velocity involves:

(1) Acceleration power, so that a higher maximum velocity can be reached. This comes from short accelerations of 20-50 meters (about 200 meters work per training session) and squat strength.

(2) Max velocity training. 4X30m flying or 60m sprints accelerating, to cause your neuromuscular system to turn over faster.

(3) Glycolytic power, to allow you to maintain power needed for max velocity long enough to train it. Repeats of 60-100m @95-100% with 60-90 sec rest (glyoolytic short speed endurance) and/or repeats of 150-300 meters @ 90-95% with 10-15 minute rest (special endurance I). Actually, both of these can be used in optimal 100 meter training.

If you are doing a whole program (and you are a sprinter), you would be doing (1) above first, at the same time you are doing hills and/or squats (for distance runners, this would be offseason or early base). Later, the squats go to maintenance or off, and you work on max velocity by alternating (2) and (3). If you do (2) or (3) to the exclusion of the other, your max velocity will be compromised, as will the 200 or 400 speed you can reach if you go to speed endurance training later.

Speed Kills, you're exactly right. I didn't think about saying some of this stuff simply because, well I'm lazy when it comes to describing it and because it's sprinting stuff. Most people here don't want to hear about it. You know what you're talking about when it comes to max velocity.

Noope

Yes I do, but that is in the transition (mid march-july) phase of the training, not all year round. I should have made that clear. In the winter the aim is to increase the vloume and to stay aerobic on sessions so 400s would be 16 building to 24 with 100 jog, probably starting in the 70-72 sec area and hopefully they get faster as the winter progresses. In the spring the numbers come down, the recovery increases and the speed increases. So back down to 16, then 12 then 8 then 5-8. (sometimes also with longer rests, sometimes not). At this point, on at least 25% of sessions you are aiming for high lactate in the last couple in much the same way as a race develops. In the others you maintain speed endurance and try to keep floating close to threshold keeping the aerobic system woking. You can do big numbers this way (Coe 40x200 session) You stop this about 4 weeks before the big race and go back to very easy running, half sessions, and a few fast races.

But whenyou train for lactate - it must be hard. When you do speed endurance it must be close to race pace and it must be long.

Hope that clarifies it -sorry if I seemed to mislead

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Regarding drills:

You really need to see drills being performed and have hands-on instruction in order to learn how to do them correctly, since there are some subtleties in breathing, foot contact and orchestration of movement which are important for correct execution. Proper execution of drills is vital to achieving the neural recruitments necessary for maximum improvement. I can list some good drills, but they will merely be names unless you know how to perform them and know how and when to incorporate them into a complete running program.

Start with simple drills involving light impact to begin developing some low-level muscular strength and joint dynamics and to wire in the neural patterns which will facilitate more advanced drills to come. These simple drills include bleacher steps (stepping onto and down from a bleacher or 20"-high plyometrics box), high knees, fast feet, lunges, crossover steps, and skipping.

In order for drills to be of any use, they must be transferable; that is, they must replicate the act of running or of certain interactive phases of running. They should also involve the components of strength, exaggerated motion, and rapid movement (in more scientific terminology, recruitment and rate coding - see below). Although each drill only needs to incorporate one or two of these components, the most advanced ones will incorporate all three at once and will be the most effective. The advanced ones will also present an injury risk if done incorrectly or without prior preparation, so do not pass over the simplest drills.

As the simple drills become easier to perform, more repetitions can be added, then these drills can eventually be phased out in favor of drills which involve more permutations of strength/exaggerated motion/rapid movement. One of the first alterations is to "combine" high knees and fast feet by performing rapid high knees. Bleacher steps and lunges can be phased out in favor of slow to medium-speed hill repetitions to build strength through recruitment of more motor units and to prepare for faster hill drills to come. Crossover steps can be continued during this time.

Faster hill repetitions of 10-12 seconds in duration can be brought in at a later stage. These should include a runup of a few seconds prior to the 10-12 seconds on the hill. Once full-speed reps are introduced, recovery between reps should be about one minute, allowing about 80% recovery of the ATP-Phosphocreatine system. Partial recovery enables continuation of the exercise with no loss of motor coordination while the continual stress to the system effects an increase in its capacity.

More advanced drills include hill sprints of 10-12 seconds with an exaggerated vertical motion (more height or lift on the toe-off) and hopping on one foot uphill for up to 12 seconds at a time.

It is always best to report what works first, then look for the reason why it works. It is the tendency of many theorists to first report why something is bound to work, being baffled if it doesn't, and stubbornly continuing to seek validation for their delusory premise in typical Fred Flintstone "cram the square peg in the round hole" fashion. Anyway, these drills are helpful - they do work - but only if done in the correct balance with other preparation. The probable basis for their effectiveness is as follows:

Power and speed are increased by recruitment (activating more motor units) and rate coding (increasing the frequency of movements).

Absolute strength (which involves greater recruitment) provides the framework for explosive strength or "speed strength" (which involves both greater recruitment and increased frequency). For running, the best method for gaining absolute strength is to spend time running in hills (at first done at relaxed speeds) to develop the mechanical properties necessary for explosive strength, which is then improved through drills which replicate running motions or interactive transitional phases of running motions.

Reducing ground contact time seems to be the principal ingredient that explosive strength training contributes to improving running economy. This type of training does not require an increase in maximum force in the muscles being trained, as improvements are due to neural adaptations and not muscle hypertrophy.

Performing near-sprints up short hills while using an exaggerated vertical component (i.e., "springing" with a little added height on each stride) is one of the best workouts for improving explosive strength, which in turn can improve running economy. The hills should be steep enough to activate a sufficient number of motor units to affect absolute power and to allow an "eccentric" pre-stretch of the ankle, but should not be so steep that the pre-stretch is a long, slow one. It has been demonstrated that the faster a muscle is stretched eccentrically, the greater the force will be on the following concentric contraction (Bosco, et al 1980). Such hill work should be performed for short durations (10-12 seconds on each uphill) and should be curtailed before muscular fatigue occurs (this is also true of other drills), as fatigue reduces the elasticity of movements and increases injury risk.

One foot hops up very short hills are also useful for improving "speed strength." This is a very advanced drill inasmuch as the potential for injury is high unless some simpler introductory drills are used for a number of weeks prior to introducing these one foot hops.

Do not neglect level-surface speedwork. If you seek to improve your 800m performance, you must do a requisite amount of work on the track, since running on a flat track activates motor units in a different pattern than that required for running uphill.

Sorry - that didn't exactly convey much thought! This thread has been very helpful and interesting for me. Can anyone recommend any good books for an 800m runner who is more speed orientated? I have 'Better Training for Distance Runners' (Martin & Coe) but that's it.

For clarity, I was refering to my bodged post rather than the one above, which does convey a lot!

Zuzu's petals: I believe I am among several others in saying "You're the man." Thanks for the great info.

sparkling kicker wrote:

Sorry - that didn't exactly convey much thought! This thread has been very helpful and interesting for me. Can anyone recommend any good books for an 800m runner who is more speed orientated? I have 'Better Training for Distance Runners' (Martin & Coe) but that's it.

"Winning Running," by Peter Coe. It's all about 800 and 1500 training.

But it depends on what you mean by "speed oriented." Coe's book is speed oriented from the endurance side. Sprint-oriented 800 training is different.

Sounds like Owen Anderson of RRNews. Those 20m sprints are bound to start improving people's 5km times sooner or later, even if they have only shown results on obese laboratory rodents as yet.

I read at one point an article in reference to Donovan Bailey's 9.84 100m 1996 Olympic win, at the time a world record. They compared his stride pattern to some regular people sprinting, finding that swing time, the time it took for the foot to recover and then swing through with heel under the buttock before ground contact, was between 0.37-0.40 seconds for elite sprinters and regular sprinters alike.

But it was the intense FORCES applied to the ground that propelled the elite sprinters forward 2.2 meters at a time (in line with Mo Greene's 45 strides per 100m breakdown).

So I'm not sure how reducing ground contact time ALONE would improve speed.

If someone is inefficient and gets their leg up off the ground really quick without applying force during that short time, what good is it?

I know high schoolers who, during their faster strides, can hit 250-270 strides per minute, but in an all-out 100m might (MIGHT) go under 14 seconds.

And it is obvious that, while their rate is quite high (most 100m runners are around 270-280 during a race), they are not generating enough force when their foot hits the ground for the track to give back energy to move them at 12-13 for 100.

If you've read it, what do you think of Renato Canova's use of this hill work year round?

Granted, his stable consists of a 26:30 10K man, a 7:53 steeplechaser, a 7:28 3K runner (you get the idea), but he suggests mixing these short hill sprints both into hard workouts and as an adjunct to or replacement for strides on easy days, e.g., 10-12 x 60m up a 15% grade.

Also, he replied that those VERY STEEP sprints you mentioned (in Kenya, a dirt road of 25%+ grade) were fundamental to John Korir's preparation right before running 26:52 for 10K in improving basic strength.

He called them "ramps":

"

But the type of hill and of work depends also on the different attitude and morphology of the athletes.

During the last week end, I had many runners in HM very good. With every one I use sprints uphill, but in different way.

With ROBERT KIPCHUMBA (22 years, winning Stramilano in 60:22) and MARTIN SULLE (22 years also, bronze medal in WHMCh, 2nd in Stramilano in 60:29), that have a technique of agility, using very high frequency, I use sprints of 60/100m with a gradient of 15% about, where they push very hard, trying long steps, for developing strenght. At the end of every session (they use also 3 sessions, in some week, of sprints climbing) they go for a run of 400/500m climbing, at their max. speed (only once). This type of training has the task of using soon your strenght in direction of strenght-endurance.

With ENOCK MITEI (24 years, n. 4 in Stramilano in 60:32) and RICHARD YATICH (24 years, n. 9 in Lisbon in 60:31) I never go under 100m of sprint, but use a hill of about 8/10 % lasting 20/25 sec. They tryi to improve their frequency, seeking more rapidity with a good reaction in their feet, that are not very elastic.

With JOHN KORIR (23 years, n. 5 in Stramilano in 60:47) I use normally very short sprints of about 40m, with a gradient of more than 30% (ramps), only for improving strenght (but too many times he doesn't use because in Military Camp or in Residential Camp before some World Championship nobody goes for short sprint). Before running 26:52 two years ago, John in St. Moritz used this type of sprints twice a week, also for reducing the lenght of his strides.

With SOLOMON BUSHENDICH (20 years, 2nd in Berlin in 60:42 in his first HM) I use only sprints from 200 to 300m, as Solomon is already very strong in his muscles, having short legs very strong. So, with him I try to develop STRENGHT-ENDURANCE, no strenght or rapidity, that already he has at good level. Solomon comes from the mountains, and his capacity in attacking hills is very high.

With DANIEL RONO (26 years, 4th in Berlin in 61:26) instead I want to develop strenght because he's very slim. Daniel uses short sprints climbing (about 15% of gradient) twice a week, going with very high knees and high frequency, as normally he uses too long strides.

So, I think that every type of hilly training can be good or less good depending on the necessities of every athlete.

"

A lot of this stuff is probably fairly important inasmuch as many distance runners can become very strong (ex: holding 80% top 400 speed for a mile) but stall because their 400m speed is not so good.

Holding 80% of 55 second 400 speed for a mile is good, but it is better to have a value of 77% of 51 speed and work on endurance from there, plus there is a greater margin at all other speeds (faster workouts feel easier, the muscles are stronger, etc.).

bizzump

Speed Kills wrote:But it depends on what you mean by "speed oriented." Coe's book is speed oriented from the endurance side. Sprint-oriented 800 training is different.

What I mean is, I don't tend to run up distance (run the 1500 or 3000/5000) and am more likely to go down to 400 (although I rarely do that). Compared to other women I know running the 800, my training is more sprint-based, with lower mileage. I'm self-coached so this is why books are helpful.

nice post Zuzu's petals!!

All that weight lifting stuff has little practical import for a distance runner wanting to improve basic speed who has 10-14 hours per week to run and a bit more to use for sprint work.

bizzump

chyea!