What's your point? I stated Symmonds was a top 100 800 meters man. Symmonds was not top in any other event. David Rudisha is the best 800 meters man. I stated there is no evidence regarding Rudisha's 1500 meters speed. I stand by everything I stated.
ThatAverageRunner wrote:
The reason guys are 400/800 or 800/1500 depends a lot on their muscle fiber makeup and background growing up.
I don't know about that.
I started college as a 400/800 runner.
I was district champ in the 400 in high school and focused on the 800 in college.
I put in more and more distance and strength work and was a 800/1500 runner by my junior year.
The 800 was my strength but I did manage to win my 1500m Conference race.
My best even my senior year was still the 800 but I moved the 1500 after college.
Sebastian Coe was a 400m runner that moved to the 800 and then become one of the greatest 800/1500 runners ever.
The 400/800 runner is really an 800 specialist that is simply much better at the 800 than the 1500 so doesn't bother racing the 1500.
Why move up to an event that you are worse in?
Competition at 1500m is pretty high at the international level. Not an easy step up.
I'm not sure Rusisha is a useful example of anything in this thread. He's the best ever at 800m but not world class in the 400m so he's not a 400/800 by my reckoning. It's also hard to know anything about his 1500m potential given his lack of participation in the distance. We can ponder why that might be but it seems to me that the simplest answer is just that he has no incentive to even experiment with the 15 given how difficult it is to pull off the double and that he's had no real challange to his dominance in the 800m.
For the purpose of this discussion I'd say Rudisha is a 400/800 runner because his 45.5 400m PR is world class and he hasn't posted a 1500m time.
And I had said that 400/800 runners are often 800m specialists, which perfectly describes Rudisha.
I always thought of an 800/1500 runner as someone who was about equally good at both.
If someone is much better in the 800 than the 1500 then I'd assume that their 400 ability is probably better than their 1500 ability.
I wasn't arguing with you specifically but is he really a 4/8 guy? Currently the 100th ranked 400m runner is Delano Williams who had a PR of 45.4. So 45.5 almost gets you in the top 100 in the world. I suppose you could call that world class but given he's number 1 all time at the 8, a 100+ current ranking doesn't strike me as a vaguely equivalent performance. Would it surprise anyone if he could pull of a better word ranking in the 15?
Working out with the 200/400 guys every once in a while
To put it another way, lacking new evidence such as him actually running a 15, I classify Rudisha as a 800-runner through and through. I don't think his 400 time is good enough relative to his 800m time to justify calling him a 400/800guy.
Star wrote:
And I had said that 400/800 runners are often 800m specialists, which perfectly describes Rudisha.
Contradictory statement... 800 specalists and 400/800 runners are explicitly different things
I'd say an 800 specialist is someone who only races the 800.
That perfectly describes Rudisha.
I also think the runners who only race the 800 are better in the 400 than the 1500. That's my opinion but you're not going to be good at the 800 without raw 400 speed. And you can do well at the 800 while relatively sucking at the 1500.
So, that's how you can be an 800 specialist simultaneously with being a 400/800 runner.
test2 wrote:
To put it another way, lacking new evidence such as him actually running a 15, I classify Rudisha as a 800-runner through and through. I don't think his 400 time is good enough relative to his 800m time to justify calling him a 400/800guy.
Rudisha's 400 would probably be a half second or more faster if he were to race an open quarter during the height of competition season. Plenty of 800 guys put up seemingly weak early season marks in the 2, 4, 6, 15, 3k, etc (a la Rudisha's 45.5, the 8:20 3ks that you'll see from 8/15 dudes on a regular basis, etc).
In this day and age, I'd generally take "4/8 guy" to mean an 800 guy with a lean towards the speed side (Solomon, Rudisha, Amos), and "8/15 guy" to mean an 800 guy with a lean towards the aerobic side (Symmonds, Murphy, Aman). As far as I know, we haven't seen an athlete put up truly equivalent marks at 4/8 since El Caballo.
Maybe we're arguing semantics and what I call an 800m specialist others call a 400/800 guy but to me 400/800 means comparable performances at both distances. Rudisha's 400 is fast but his 800 is out of this world so I don't view the performances as comparable. Rudisha owns the 800m record but is about 5.5% off the 400m record. Ratio-wise that would be like him running a 3:40 1500m which doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
Star;
What makes you think Coe was a 400/800 runner? He is not near the top UK rankings for either event in his developmental years.
Ovett was on these lists (48.4 as a u17, and 1.52.5; later a 47.5 as u20 and 1.45.7) He was a relatively early maturer (vis-a-vis Coe anyway).
I would call Coe at this point more a 1500/3000 runner (3.45.2/8.14) as a Junior, who isn't under 1.49.2 for 800m at this point. Seems to me, based on "better training for distance runners", that it was the strength work while at Loughborough that developed (adding 10ibs of muscle to his 5'9" frame - 119 to 129) his speed, both in terms of specific training and strength development. Maturing also helped. This environment provided Coe the opportunity (training with sprinters at times as well) to develop areas which were perhaps not available to him earlier.
ThatAverageRunner wrote:
... Rudisha would struggle at 1500m.
You can play with times here at
http://timescalculator.appspot.comFor 45.5 and 1:40.5:
400 0:45.5
800 1:40.5
1000 2:09.89
1500 3:26.54
1-mile 3:43.73
3000 7:33.55
2-mile 8:10.94
5000 13:26.26
10000 29:10.8
Someone in this thread mentioned that his 400m time might be faster later in the season, so here:
For 45 and 1:40.5,
400 0:45.0
800 1:40.5
1000 2:10.30
1500 3:28.27
1-mile 3:45.79
3000 7:40.86
2-mile 8:19.20
5000 13:43.25
10000 29:58.0
Actual modern dual 4/8 guys who compete in both??? Not many these days. Rudisha certainly is of that typology, but not in competitions. In fact, only one, Juantoreena won Olys in both 4 & 8 @ 44.26 & 1:43.44.
Many more Olympians in 8/15. (Flack, Lightbody, Sheppard, Hill, and Snell won gold in both plus Coe & Ovett with different medal colors in both.
Range is harder to achieve towards the sprint end.
Lagat, Bekele & Aouita prove range from 800 up to marathon at elite levels is only reflected at middle and distance, not down to 400 or lower.
LeftyLoosey wrote:
Lagat, Bekele & Aouita prove range from 800 up to marathon at elite levels is only reflected at middle and distance, not down to 400 or lower.
If they never tried, then it is not proof.
Star wrote:
...
Sebastian Coe was a 400m runner that moved to the 800 and then become one of the greatest 800/1500 runners ever.
...
Uh, no. Coe was always an 800/1500 runner who developed amazing 400 speed. This is perhaps the most overlooked achievement of his training.
About 25 years ago I recall my coach saying that Coe said that he was a jacked up 400 runner.
Maybe he said it in his book, or his father's book.
That's where I got the idea that he was a 400 runner that moved up.
Maybe not.
But I still stand by me saying that I was a 400/800 runner that became an 800/1500 runner.
Runners tend to move up in distance until they find their best event.
If your best event turns out to be the 800, you likely won't make serious 1500 attempts. That's the 400/800 type.
Some good 800 runners are nearly as good or even better at the 1500.
Nick Symmonds is an interesting case.
At 3:34, he put up a good 1500m time.
But he only ran the 800 at championship events.
I'd say he's a 800/1500 type that would be an 800 specialist, an exception to my rule.
I'm making the assumption that we are putting all 800m runners in either one bucket or the other.
ThatAverageRunner wrote:
The 400/800 guy would likely do less mileage, but even this isn't always true considering Murphy does roughly 50-60mpw,
Quick note, I'd have to argue that Murphy is NOT a 400/800 guy considering he won the 1500m at NCAAs.
But on a more related note, I'd have to say that 400/800 guys are more often than not 800m specialists who can move down to the 400 because they have the speed and (fast) training to do so. There seem to be few exceptions to this, although Chris Giesting is a fascinating example. 800/1500 guys are a little more complicated because of the fact that they need speed but also great endurance, whereas a pure 400/800 runner might struggle at 1500m. In my opinion, this makes a man who can run a fast 800m AND a fast 1500m rarer than someone who can run a fast 400m and fast 800m. This is highly debatable, however and I will accept that there are many exceptions and that it may not be right in your view.
Star wrote:
About 25 years ago I recall my coach saying that Coe said that he was a jacked up 400 runner.
Maybe he said it in his book, or his father's book.
That's where I got the idea that he was a 400 runner that moved up.
Maybe not.
But I still stand by me saying that I was a 400/800 runner that became an 800/1500 runner.
Runners tend to move up in distance until they find their best event.
If your best event turns out to be the 800, you likely won't make serious 1500 attempts. That's the 400/800 type.
Some good 800 runners are nearly as good or even better at the 1500.
Nick Symmonds is an interesting case.
At 3:34, he put up a good 1500m time.
But he only ran the 800 at championship events.
I'd say he's a 800/1500 type that would be an 800 specialist, an exception to my rule.
I'm making the assumption that we are putting all 800m runners in either one bucket or the other.
Coe was a longer distance runner as a kid. Easy to find that info.
Everyone keeps quoting the 45.50 400m rudisha ran... But elsewhere online (not Iaaf's website and im too tired to check) he has a best time of 45.19. the video of part of the race shown during a Kenyan interview on YouTube (again, too tired to find it) shows it at a low-key meet where second place probably ran 47... Anyone who truly believes that Rudisha couldn't go sub 45 if he raced it more often with serious competition is out of their minds. He has probably ran at most 3 400s in the last Olympic quadrennial...