OPINION: Running In Flats

how would you be more prone to injuries? it's just like running barefoot all the time. People do it everyday all over the world.

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and with regard to my own PBs -- since I was hurt and subsequently made the switch to flats, I have yet to race. It's been a slow comeback, but hope to PR in the fall.

BTW -- I went through my whole song and dance with the head designer at a major shoe company who does in fact has various degrees in science -- and agreed with my approach and my logic and said the reason they weren't targeting that was because it would be tough to sell. They're marketing to the 4.5 hrs marathoner who has no athletic background or natural efficiency or strength. I understand that -- I just wish that the line wasn't "you must need this"

trackhead wrote:

I say that Geb's problems are due to the fact that he's switching heights --

Based on what exactly? What do you know of the shoes he wears day to day and workout to workout? What do you know of his injury, the cause, the surgery or his training?

jogging in a 24mm shoe and then doing performance work in an 18 or 10mm shoe is irritating to an Achilles

Running at a world class level is irritating to an achilles.

Geb ran for many years, setting world records left and right switching between trainers and spikes. Safe to say he knows the drill better than you.

Trackhead,

I agree with your arguments but stick to the facts.

The reality is you, and pretty much no one else, has any idea what Geb wears when training. You only know what he wears when racing.

He has also had achilles problems for years. Maybe it is related to his shoes.

Then again, maybe it is related to all those steep, uphill sprints the Ethiopians are known to be fanatical about.

Maybe he pushes himself fanatically hard?

By the way - I will make mince meat of Armstrong this year.

Der Kaiser

Yeah and people do it all day all over the world on concrete? no. Do they have less injuries from running barefoot? no

Do you have any science based data to back up what you are saying? no

Do you have any experience yourself in regarding to your own performance? no you haven't even raced. So you can't even make the arguement that you have run faster.

Joe,

I understand but, I was saw what these world class runners were wearing. It makes a lot of sense to me -- don't know if the idea/info will ever get there to help, but I think it's something to consider.

Again -- will this happen to everyone? Obviously not. But if you have a sensitive achilles, I think it's best to pick a height and stick with it, the lower the better.

Here's an excerpt from one of the previously cited papers:

Footwear modifies some of the characteristics of the propulsion phase in other ways. Several of these changes are related to the aforementioned elevated heel of the shoe. One byproduct of heel elevation is a shortening of the Achilles tendon and calf muscles. Three of the calf muscles – the posterior tibial, flexor hallucis longus and flexor digitorum longus – play important roles in the function of the arch. As these muscles become shorter, they fail to pull properly on the back of the heel thereby increasing the flattening of the arch. Pronation occurs at a time when the foot should be in a neutral position. The unnatural position of the elevated heel also disrupts the work of some tendons connected to the toes. These tendons, which originate in the lower leg, apply their pull around ankle bones above the heel to hold the toes against the ground while the body passes over them during propulsion. The raised heel leads to an imbalance in the tug of these tendons thereby interfering with efficient propulsion.11

Perhaps the greatest hindering effect of elevated heel is the loss of the involuntary stretch reflex of the Achilles and posterior lower leg muscles. This stretch reflex is designed to aid the forefoot with propulsion, yet it can only be activated if the heel comes close to the ground. The elevated heels of most available footwear, including athletic shoes, prevent this stretch reflex from occurring.11 The result is a loss of propulsive power. The runner’s body is forced to borrow power from other areas – knee, thigh, hips, trunk – to compensate for the sidelined Achilles tendon and calf muscles.12 According to podiatrist William A. Rossi, "ANY shoe with an elevated heel, even a one-inch heel, automatically places the foot at a functional disadvantage."4

a) I'm looking at both efficiency and injury resistance. Running faster becomes a by product of that -- however -- if you're an Ethiopian on the national team, grew up without shoes and do all their drills, you probably won't gain much in the way of efficiency from making a full on switch. Your biggest gains will be in injury prevention.

b) In terms of PRs it's hard to say because many of the people I know who run/ran in flats did so forever. Moller (Oly bronze), the Empire of Japan, just about anyone before the 80s. In terms of documented improvement (which of course play into other factors) I know that LaWoof droped a minute off of his 5k before-and-after (I think his 16:01 5k split from an 8k was a minute faster than he had run before). Jaguar1 is another poster who has been able to train more consistently and thus run much better than before.

But as we all realise, there are many facotrs that go into PRs. Again -- with this cream of the crop of athletics, I wouldn't be looking for massive PRs, just fewer injuries.

as far as concrete and barefoot running, I will admite that a) there's not enough data for me to make a claim on it and b) I haven't done it enough for long enough to know it's long term implications. For natural surfaces, I have no doubt that you can run forever unshod.

But...

Even on concrete, what is going to be more like a piece of earth? My smashed up, compressed firm, thin cut of EVA from my H Streets are the ultra squishy Pegs? My shoe that really does even a half-way decent job of replicating that same sensation of running unshod on grass is the shoe that is firm, thin and doesn't compress a whole lot.

Just an observation:

It seems to me that many of the same people who digest and implement 99 percent of Lydiard dogma refuse to see or hear his advice about shoes. Essentially, he said 1)train and race in the same shoes 2)these shoes should be like slippers.

Like everything Lydiard learned by experience and trial and error, he is spot on. The law of specificity demands all runners to acknowledge that we must train as we plan to race. This includes muscles affected by the shoes on our feet. Train in your racing shoes whatever they might be and you'll have fewer problems come race day. Why? Specificity.

If you can't handle training in your racing shoes, they you won't be able to fully handle racing in your racing shoes.

What is so complicated about this?

Lydiard had it figured out 40 years ago.

The excerpt basically puts forth the virtues of training in flats. That's great: I train in flats myself so you don't need to convince me on that one.

But we were talking about switching between trainers and flats in workouts.

For 20 years, I trained in big, thick trainers and raced in low-profile flats. During all those years I had exactly one achilles injury. The thing I found about the achilles injury is that shoes were completely irrelevant. It is either injured or it's healed. Didn't matter what shoes I wore if it wasn't ready to go, it wasn't ready to go.

In the time I've been training in flats, I've had one another serious achilles injury (caused by a separate specifica trauma, not the flats). While coming back from that, I've found that the only thing that aggravates it is not the shoes I wear but rather the types of workouts I do. The only "relapses" I've had came right after I did hard track workouts.

Now apply this to the level and number of hard workouts that a guy like Geb does. More likely he just tried to come back too fast from his surgery than that switching shoes knocked him out of the marathon.

I've been following this debate for the last year. I've kept an open mind, but dammit, I have formed an OPINION. And like the idiot I am, I will share it.

There is only one way to end this, and that is by using something no one here has even considered--the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

Basically, you get three groups of runners. Group A trains barefoot. Group B trains in flats. Group C trains in cushioned trainers. These groups are selected at random.

Have all three groups do the same mileage on the same surfaces. Then, record the results measuring both speed and incident of injuries.

Due to the ambitious nature of this project plus all of the variables that have to be accounted for, I doubt it will happen. I think it would be a great experiment, but like all science today, if there is no money to be made, it isn't going to happen. So, we are left with anecdotes and conjecture.

My unscientific personal belief is that such an experiment would yield the conclusion that there is no benefit or drawback to running with cushioned trainers, flats, or barefoot. In other words, they are all equal. Hell, you could run in wingtips, and they would be just as good. It is more a matter of comfort than performance or injury.

Out.

Joe,

I totally understand, and understand that I could be off my rocker on this (among other things...)

That being said, I think it is, at the very least, something to consider.

Before I made the switch, I trained in shoes like the 2070 or Supernova EXTRA and raced in spikes and never had an achilles injury (although my calves would be killing me). Again, I'm not saying this would happen to everyone (obviously it doesn't) but for those with sensitive achilles tendons, I think it is (at the very least) something to consider.

a guy wrote:

I would be interested in hearing Trackhead's PBs, and how switching to flats only has improved your times. I would just like to hear the success of some people.

I'm a female who dropped my 5K road PR from 18:29 to 17:51 (38 seconds) after a year of training in flats and also managed to stay healthy long enough (for the first time ever!) to run a 10K road PR of 36:22 and 55:46 for 15K, respectively. Now, I'm training to qualify for the 2008 Olympic Marathon Trials, something I had never imagined would be possible until last fall. I've gone from having 7 stress fractures (feet, femurs) to having NO INJURIES at all... while wearin hardly anything on my feet.