Is 3x1000 a good early season workout for middle schoolers

Another worthless idiotic HS coach.

There are far more kids at D1 programs who never/barely ran in middle school than ones that ran structured programs.

Oh but you probably never came within a mile of a D1 program so you would have no idea.

Good job getting your talentless kids to 3rd tier programs.

I have to agree with duck runner. Most kids at D1 programs probably didn't run in middle school. I ran a bit in middle school as part of PE ... back in the old days when schools had PE. I enjoyed running in PE and began running on my own. I lived in a rural area and I had limited access to organized sports. Keep it fun in middle school, I would approach it more as "Cross Country 101". In high school, things that challenged me were doing "tradition runs" like the "tower run" - we ran a route to the tower, coach followed along in the van, water along the way, etc. "The big hill run" - basically, run up the big hill, "bacon strip" ... small rolling hills. Fun: "Creek run" ... we ran out to the creek, everyone went for a swim and then we ran back to school.

duck runner wrote:

Another worthless idiotic HS coach.

There are far more kids at D1 programs who never/barely ran in middle school than ones that ran structured programs.

Oh but you probably never came within a mile of a D1 program so you would have no idea.

Good job getting your talentless kids to 3rd tier programs.

duck runner wrote:

Another worthless idiotic HS coach.

There are far more kids at D1 programs who never/barely ran in middle school than ones that ran structured programs.

Oh but you probably never came within a mile of a D1 program so you would have no idea.

Good job getting your talentless kids to 3rd tier programs.

Talentless? I guess time will tell. If you'd like to compare results let me know. I also have an older child who is in high school and going strong. I actually ran on scholarship until injuries derailed my running career. I had no structure growing up and that was most likely why I was getting injured quite a bit. Kids need a base to work off of before they get to the higher levels. But you know what, I really don't have time to go back and forth with you. I wish your approach well and I would hope you could do the same to me. I have never pushed my kids (as in my biological kids- I only coach them) and they have already achieved quite a bit with limited miles (less than 20 a week) of structured training. I have a thirteen year old who is starting to run around 25 a week right now and he is fifth in the USA in multiple events starting with the 800m (he's very close in the 400m as well) and ending with the 3000m. This is the second time he ever ran the 3000m this year and is already under 10 flat. So I'm pretty happy with his progression. He actually took last year off bc he wanted to try and just relax for the summer. He came back in August and has been a beast ever since. So we definitely don't push in our home, but if one of our kids does want something or sets a goal for themselves, we try to let them understand what they are committing to and if they are still interested, we let them do it under our supervision and guidance. Thankfully they are my own kids so I don't have to have people like you complaining to the school that you signed your kid up for track and now the coach actually wants to have them run structured practices. These kids aren't babies, they are basically teenagers and I see nothing wrong with letting them workout a bit to prepare for the rigors of high school and college running. But thanks for being so respectful and not just stereotyping me. I guess you are probably busy right now getting ready for the Olympic trials so I won't take up any more of your time. I'm sure you started in mid high school and are now the super runner everybody can't wait to watch run in the olympics. So good luck!

By the way, go to flotrack and look at the section on elite runners who started running when they were in grade school. Seemed to work for them

Oops. One more thing. This year was the first year my thirteen year old had ever ran a 3000m. Prior to that the longest competitive run was 1500m. We have an eleven year old and he just started the 1500m. We let them progress as they get older and mature. Again, I'm sure they burn out in a year anyway right?

Coach t wrote:

Oops. One more thing. This year was the first year my thirteen year old had ever ran a 3000m. Prior to that the longest competitive run was 1500m. We have an eleven year old and he just started the 1500m. We let them progress as they get older and mature. Again, I'm sure they burn out in a year anyway right?

No, but what you are completely missing is this:

I'm sure you want the best for the kids. That is commendable. But first, the kids are growing. There is far more to lose by putting too much stress on these young, weak bodies, than there is to gain by getting a "head start" on "serious" training.

Second, and most important, whatever "head start" you think you are getting will become absolutely meaningless when faced by actual, real talented runners who were busy playing soccer or some other sport in middle school. Freshman year of HS, kids will catch up, extremely quickly, and makeup for whatever "loss" they suffered by not running seriously in middle school, if any.

So what's going to happen when your kid who tried real hard through middle school shows up to HS and is suddenly getting creamed by kids who barely ran at all but have so much more talent? You're setting your kids up for a huge psychological shock and in fact this may turn them off from running altogether.

I went through the whole AAU/USATF junior competition stuff in high school. I met kids who had done it throughout middle school as well.

The sprinters were the only ones who stuck through the program. The distance kids were long gone and long exposed as not having the talent.

My biggest critique of training "seriously" as a child (which is what a middle school kid is, really, look at them, they're tiny), is that you're putting "serious" and "competition" first. If you do that, there are only two possible results:

1) the kid is talented and may (and I mean MAY) benefit from starting a semi-structured program early; or more likely

2) the kid will realize he isn't talented, and he has no shot at winning, so his initial rationale for running in the first place is gone and so he quits.

This is why you don't see any "bad" gymnasts or figure skaters in high school - they all start super early, and the ones that have no shot at anything have long since quit.

Please do not turn our sport into some Soviet-style experimental ground for developing robot-runners. The Africans only run young because they have no choice. Our kids have the luxury to do something physically beneficial and fun as children, such as playing with a ball or playing tag with each other.

Angry Willy wrote:

I have to agree with duck runner. Most kids at D1 programs probably didn't run in middle school.]

Any evidence of that? I don't have stats either but I can name plenty of kids who certainly did run in MS and seemed to turn out fine in college.

Even if true, any evidence that structured training was detrimental? Or prevented any otherwise talented runner from being a good D1 athlete?

Even if true does that mean nobody should run in MS? I'm struggling with the logic here. Because one in a thousand D1 talents *might* burnout, nobody should try hard?

Also enlighten us on what other sports kids should not practice in order to get a scholarship.

Coacher guy wrote:

Any evidence of that? I don't have stats either but I can name plenty of kids who certainly did run in MS and seemed to turn out fine in college.

Even if true, any evidence that structured training was detrimental? Or prevented any otherwise talented runner from being a good D1 athlete?

Even if true does that mean nobody should run in MS? I'm struggling with the logic here. Because one in a thousand D1 talents *might* burnout, nobody should try hard?

Also enlighten us on what other sports kids should not practice in order to get a scholarship.

I think we're talking about "running seriously" in middle school, meaning, an actual structured running program as opposed to "ok today let's do 2 laps around the school grounds and call it a day."

Frankly, I see no scientific reason for why a structured program is bad for middle schoolers. My objection is the psychological aspect. If you turn running into winning, guess what. There is 1 winner and a whole lot of losers. And if it becomes all about winning, nobody is going to want to punish their bodies to come last. They'll quit.

I have read all the articles on children running and it's almost fact that all of those old wives tales are just that and running at a young age does no harm for children. Their doctor is a well respected pediatrician and he has them meet with him privately to discuss their running and also discuss their expectation and their father's (mine) as well. I have no idea if my kids will continue running or not, but I know they love it right now and I know we take plenty of time off after the season and also after tougher workouts for them to recover. I honestly wanted them to be sprinters like I was but they wanted to try some longer stuff. I wouldn't even allow them to run a 3000m until the one was one month away from being thirteen. We keep it loose on longer running days and we try and let them have input on what they want/or feel like running.

I do believe in being really careful at this age because of course I worry about anything that could have harmful consequences for them. I know my daughter had a friend who started getting into pot when she was 13, so I'd rather take my chances with this than have them end up stoners or drunks as teenagers. I just don't see the logic in waiting. I do however see the logic in being extremely careful with it and also letting the kids have a voice and express their opinions and me accepting their choices when they make them. So I'm going to leave it at that and wish you well.

I coached middle school for 12 seasons. There is nothing wrong with this workout, but not this early in the season. About 6 weeks out from last race i would start with race pace work. start with 6x500, then 5x600 and work up to 3x1000

For now if you want to do 3x1000 (nothing wrong with that) If someone is doing a 12:00 3k right now (not goal) right now I would be doing (we actually did this on Monday) I would be doing tempo or 10k pace for these right now. So that would be around 6:55/mi pace.

They just need strong aerobic development right now at this point in the season. Use 4x150 or 6x100 strides at 1600 pace after to get their legs moving. That is all they need and you will develop runners who stay healthy, have run and are very competitive at the championship meet.

I never understand the hate and push back when this topic comes up if middle school kids should have smart structured training. You don't see club baseball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball etc. parents telling their kids they should just go play tag in a field instead of having a structured program for their sports. Plenty of those kids wash out and don't play college or even high school.

Structure is very good for middle schoolers, most of them like it.

Hard work on the track should be avoided. Prepubescent runners don't get the benefits from anaerobic training that adult runners get. The enzymes that make anaerobic work effective for adults aren't developed in their bodies.

The challenge is keeping it fun in a structuered environment while keeping most of the work aerobic. "We're going to run for a half hour again today" gets old real quick for kids that age.

I set up easy track workouts that are mostly aerobic pace just to break up the monotony. Also use some alactic sprints to build leg speed.

Begin with a tempo and follow it up immediately with 3 x 600 at goal pace. That will give the kids more varied stimulation. It will also somewhat level the field between speedy and strong kids. Adjust tempo and rep lengths as needed for your kids.

So these kids are supposed to be running sub 10 3ks on grass and over hills but they only run 7.8 miles per week?

Look, if you have been training them like HS runners since last XC season ended, then you can train them like HS runners this fall, but again, 3 x 1k at GOAL 3k pace is not an early season workout for Galen Rupp...

I don't know where you live so it is possible, but there are not many kids most places that end up running sub 10 MS XC races. For example, at nationals last summer, only 15 of 40 broke 10 for 3k on the track and they had 6 more months to mature and train.

http://results.flotrack.org/2015/07-27-USATF/Web/Track.php?EN=357&RN=1&D=6

kids coach wrote:

Hard work on the track should be avoided. Prepubescent runners don't get the benefits from anaerobic training that adult runners get. The enzymes that make anaerobic work effective for adults aren't developed in their bodies.

.

This simply may not be accurate (see below) and in my experience (both as a coach and an observer of other coaches) it is not accurate.

The influence of training status on the aerobic and anaerobic responses to exercise in children: a review. (2014)

"Overall, the conclusion that must be drawn from

the available evidence is that there is no maturational

threshold or trigger point in the influence of training

on children’s responses to exercise (McNarry et al.,

2010a, 2011). This conclusion has implications

within a training and performance environment,

suggesting that significant effects of training can be

elicited even before puberty. It is important to

highlight, however, that it remains to be determined

if commencing intensive training during pre-puberty

is associated with any greater benefit during adulthood

than commencing intensive training at a later

maturity stage. Any potential benefit would need to

be balanced with the increased chance of burnout or

injury which is widely associated with intensive

training at a young age.."

Thank you!

One word everyone.. well actually a couple.... Balance and perspective. Most people on here are saying similar things. Middle schoolers can do some track workouts but the overall goal of MS ( and really HS as well) is to keep it fun and have them enjoy running. Success will come at different times and levels for different kids. They need to understand the importance of hard work being the key to success, but also that in the big picture it is still just running.

I am lucky my oldest daughter is having some local success (5:24 1500 for a 12 year old entering grade 7, in her first 1500 this summer). She LOVES running and basketball. She practices with her teams during the short seasons.. XC and MS/summer track end up being 8 weeks or so each and never practice more than 3 times a week. She does a few workouts with her coaches, most don't really know how to give workouts that matter with times/paces etc.. but she is running and having fun. That is what counts. I coach her a bit ( I coach XC and track at a high school in the next district over) but make sure to never contradict one of her coaches. She basically does not run at all during basketball season in the winter.

One worry I have is she is starting to get too into times, both hers and others. Pouring over other results. So I have to be careful here, as I know she watches me do the same thing with high school results and trolling on letsrun!!

Another question for people here. What are your thoughts on spikes for younger distance runners. My daughter (12 years old) is running in trainers now. Some kids run in spikes at her races. Makes me nervous, lower leg/foot injuries.. Achillies/shin splints.