NY Times: USADA seeking to depose Dr. Brown, hearing to be held July 11

Coach Cookie wrote:

This means that the investigation is still going... and that Salazar is going down... somebody wake up the Brojos!

Are we talking about thyroid meds again? Good grief!!

The stuff ain't banned, even after WADA investigated it, nor has it ever been banned.

Meanwhile, the Russians are passing dirty blood through holes in drug labs and Aden's group is driving around half of Spain trying to dispose of used EPO needles.

I could care less if KG took cytomel to lose baby fat. We've got serious doping issues going on in our sport and USADA is wasting our time and our money on this?

Can't I just enjoy one track championships without hearing about Kara or thyroid meds?

Coach Cookie wrote:

Salazar did multiple things that might not be illegal but that are doping practices. Here's a few things that clean coaches don't do:

- Private testing to make sure a doping agent cleared from an athlete's system.

- Conduct experiments on clearing time of doping agents.

- Prescribe medications.

- Change the way athletes take a medication.

Whoa there cowboy! None of those things are against the T&F rules. Just don't fail the IQ test.

I keep telling you all doping is okay. It really is. Just be thorough like Salazar and know you'll never test positive...

Did you read the entire article?

Here is the excerpt again for the testosterone 'experiment' part:

Mr. Salazar also wrote that Dr. Brown had helped him conduct an experiment amid heightened concern in the track world that athletes could be sabotaged by someone rubbing a tainted substance on them.

They rubbed Androgel, a synthetic form of testosterone, on the test subjects — Mr. Salazar’s sons — to determine whether a small amount might set off a positive drug test. They ultimately determined that it was extremely unlikely that such a sabotage could happen.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy your reading.

"They ultimately determined that it was extremely unlikely that such a sabotage could happen."

What they determined is not that sabotage could happen, but that the small amount of product rubbed would not trigger a positive test.

Oh the never-ending trifecta that is the science experiment that is Galen Rupp - asthma medication, thyroid medication, and the precise amount of testosterone (the real debate is whether this is tested weekly or daily) that is just under the ratio.

Yes, I read the article. I am not defending the test. I said it was the strangest or most suspect thing to come out of this. I only asked about the disclosure to USADA at the time. Here is how Salazar described it in his rebuttal (below). He says he called a hotline then ran the experiment. So as I read it he reported a concern but did not disclose the experiment at the time. It sounds like Brown might have legal / ethical issues but presumably there was informed consent fro Salazar's sons.

According to the filing, USADA reached out to Brown this February and then filed this action last week.

-------------------------------------------------------

The Sabotage Test

Our testing was conducted to ensure our post-race protocol was structured to eliminate the risk of sabotage.

There was never intent to do anything illegal.

Magness has disregarded the facts and circumstances of what actually occurred.

Magness also makes baseless attacks about a test that I conducted on testosterone years before he joined the Oregon Project. Magness did not participate in the test and did not see the test parameters or the test results. He had a brief conversation about the test. Now, years later, he claims in the BBC/ProPublica stories that the purpose of the test was “ludicrious” and then alleges an alternative motive directly contrary to why the test was run and how it was designed. Here is what really happened.

In 2006, Justin Gatlin tested positive for exogenous testosterone. Gatlin asserted that he had not knowingly taken testosterone and claimed that he had been sabotaged by his massage therapist, Chris Whetstine. The Gatlin story was extremely well known throughout the track world. Rumors about whether athletes could test positive by having something rubbed on them after a race and before going to doping control were rampant. See

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/sports/othersports/06gatlin.html?_r=1&

On May 9, 2009, Galen Rupp’s University of Oregon 4x1 mile relay team set a new NCAA record. Shortly after the race while talking to the press, Galen felt someone rubbing his shoulders. He turned around and it was Chris Whetstine. Galen had heard the stories. He was extremely concerned and called me. I called the USADA hotline to report it. USADA may still have the tapes or notes of my call. Nothing came of it but it caused us grave concern.

Having experienced this scare, we decided to conduct an experiment to determine if it was possible for someone to rub something on an athlete after a race that would cause that athlete to test positive. If it was possible, we wanted to make sure our post-race protocol was structured to eliminate this risk. I was a bit naive and let my paranoia get the best of me here but there was never intent to do anything illegal.

The Gatlin case involved testosterone so we decided to see if rubbing Androgel on an athlete after a race could cause a positive test. Dr. Jeffery Brown set up the experiment. Existing medical literature indicated that eight squirts of Androgel would cause a marked increase in male hormones within 15 minutes of being placed on the skin. Eight squirts, however, is a lot of Androgel and would be clearly noticed by the person on which it was being rubbed. The experiment was designed to see if lower amounts, which the athlete may not notice being applied could trigger a positive test. The subjects for the experiment were my sons, who are the same approximate age as typical elite athletes and are in good physical condition. But are not elite athletes subject to USADA or any other elite testing pool.

In early July 2009, the parameters of the experiment were set and the first part of the test conducted. The initial protocol was to take a urine sample at the beginning as a control. The subjects then ran for 20 minutes on a treadmill at a brisk pace at an ambient temperature of 85ºF to create an aggressive sweat to simulate having run a 5k race or longer. One squirt (1.25 grams) was applied to one subject and two squirts (2.5 grams) was applied to the other sweaty subject. Another urine sample was then taken an hour later. The urine samples were then sent to the Aegis Sciences Corporation for testing. The T/E ratios for the subjects were in the normal range.

After receiving the test results, we re-ran the experiment in late July using the same protocols except this time four squirts (5 grams) of Androgel were applied to the subjects after they had played one-hour of full court basketball at a high level. Again the urine samples were tested by Aegis. This time one of the subjects had a T/E ratio of 2.8:1, which approaches the threshold of 4:1 that could trigger a positive doping violation. See Exhibit 17.

On July 31, 2009, after reviewing the second test results, Dr. Brown emailed me to see if we wanted to run the test a third time using six squirts. I responded that I did not think it was worth it as “The four squirts was an enormous amount that was easily noticed and had to be applied carefully to keep it from falling off.” See Exhibit 17. Dr. Brown agreed and noted that published data indicated “that eight squirts would throw the 4/1 ratio. I responded: “I’ll sleep better now after drug tests at big meets knowing someone didn’t sabotage us!” See Exhibit 17.

On August 5, 2009, Dr Brown noted that while the experiment had demonstrated that it was unlikely that a male athlete could be sabotaged by secretly rubbing Androgel on him after a race, it could take far less Androgel to cause a woman to test positive. We did not test this hypothesis. Instead, Dr. Brown recommended that to avoid the possibility of sabotage, female athletes should not have any physical contact with anybody until after drug testing had been completed.

The above-described evidence makes it abundantly clear that the focus of this experiment was to determine whether or not an athlete could be sabotaged by someone rubbing testosterone gel on the athlete after an event before the athlete reports to doping control. These documents and the experiment’s protocol also make it abundantly clear that this test did not in any way contemplate micro-dosing as alleged by the BBC/ProPublica stories and Magness. If one was testing for micro-dosing as they imply, the protocol would be different and an athlete would be given the gel before exercising.

Bottom line, Magness appears to have imagined a scenario to fit his narrative about the Oregon Project and me without regard for the facts and circumstances of what actually occurred.

rjm33 wrote:

Alberto Salazar does not have any authorization to conduct an 'experiment' rubbing the controlled drug Androgel on his two sons as 'test subjects'.

If they did not have a prescription, then Alberto is breaking various federal drug laws of the United States by administering a controlled substance to two people who don't have a prescription for that drug. Alberto Salazar is not a doctor and can't write prescriptions for any drug.

Federal drug laws are subject to the Federal statute of limitations, 18 U.S. Code § 3282, which is five years. This means Alberto cannot be charged for anything that he did before June, 2011. Since the Androgel experiment was run in 2009 he cannot be prosecuted for it.

The Oregon Statute is only three years.

This has already been covered in a previous post by rjm33 on this thread.

That is just a coincidence.

Oh boy.

Good job finding and digging this out again. I remember it very well.

A normal T/E ratio is 1:1.

Look how 4 squirts of Androgel (5 grams) was so much it was hard to keep it from falling off the skin, and it increased the ratio to 2.8:1 in one subject (son).

Even with this large dose, the T/E ratio is still well below the 4:1 limit.

Dr. Brown also told Alberto that published research indicated that 8 squirts would "throw the 4/1 ratio".

Mary Decker Slaney had a T/E ratio above the previous 6:1 limit when she had a positive testosterone test in 1996. She was eventually banned.

Her coach at the time of the positive test was Alberto Salazar.

Salazar's experiment has 2 'subjects'... which are both his sons. He gives two different doses to the 2 'subjects' in the first 'experiment' and has them run. In his second 'experiment' they play basketball for an hour.

Alberto is really quite a scientist!

He also does not do any testing on females, who could test positive with a smaller dose. Why doesn't Alberto care about sabotage testing in his female athletes? Why doesn't he repeat his 'experiment' with females?

He just states females can avoid sabotage by avoiding physical contact with other people until drug testing is completed. That is true.

It is also true that males can avoid sabotage by avoiding physical contact until testing is completed... and none of this sabotage experiment would be necessary to do.

That seems a little weird to me.

The part where Alberto says "I was a bit naive…" really got my attention.

When I think of Alberto Salazar…the word "naive" does not come up in my mind as a good way to describe him.

nwpow wrote:

Oh the never-ending trifecta that is the science experiment that is Galen Rupp - asthma medication, thyroid medication, and the precise amount of testosterone (the real debate is whether this is tested weekly or daily) that is just under the ratio.

Here are some more stories from the last week:

1) American Academy Of Pediatrics Finds Increased Use Of PEDs Among Middle And High School Students The study included legal drugs as well, but found that 5% of high schoolers use HGH or steroids.

2)

3)

4) Robert Young fake transcontinental run.

5) Jama Aden bust with 62 used syringes, 23 preloaded EPO syringes, and 4 different kinds of EPO in 6 vials.

6) Here is one more not from this week. Humans may even be doping horses with xenon and krypton as activators of HIF-1alpha to increase endogenous EPO production and increase RBC production just like an EPO injection.

It was a slow week.

No worries.

Enjoy the circus.

Salazar has every reason to expect his male runners would be sabotaged--the people on this forum hate him and his athletes. I wouldn't be surprised if a LetsRun members did the sabotaging.

He doesn't need to worry about his female athletes because LetsRun doesn't hate his women in the same way. Except they hate Kara. If she hadn't defected to Oiselle he would have done the test on women as well.

He couldn't rely on USADA to do such a test, so he had to do it himself. He's quite the innovative genius. Always looking ahead and foreseeing possible problems. Always looking out for his athletes.

These "controversies" you speak of are all readily explainable when you presume innocence instead of guilt. Instead, your religion is to believe everyone is on drugs, and your religion says that all drugs are performance enhancing.

What separates drugs from religion, is that at its base, there are repeatable, real world observations linking drug use to improved performance. Not for all drugs, in all circumstances, but many drugs have shown performance improvements in scientific and athletic real world settings. The drugs/supplement market is exaggerated for many bad human reasons, but at its base, there are reasons to believe that some drugs can improve performance.

Who hired you for this job? As I have expressed many times:

- you are a bad messenger: Your high opinion of yourself might be correct -- I don't want to discuss the real level or depth of your knowledge -- but judging by your posts in this forum, you simply don't know how to engage with people, and the near universal reaction is that you come across as an "idiot", because seemingly you have misinterpreted something, or misstated something. Again, whether you are an idiot or not is beside the point, that's just what seems to be the near universal reaction. This often decays into personal attacks both ways, which, I guess, is not part of the job description.

- you don't provide sufficient data: How can you educate without providing relevant references to support your "unpopular" conclusions? Often you provide no link, or the link you provide falls short. When pressed to elaborate, you ultimately assign the burden of proof on others to do the research needed to figure out what you are saying, pointing us to the very texts that show what you are trying to debunk.

- whether or not the fault lies in everyone else, you need to change your approach, if you want to effectively deliver your message. It's not enough that you have educated yourself, but for "this job", you need to capture the attention of others, establish your credentials and credibility, and then connect your conclusions to the real world.

Salazar Said

Bottom line, Magness appears to have imagined a scenario to fit his narrative about the Oregon Project and me without regard for the facts and circumstances of what actually occurred.

Hahahahahaha.

"Six squirts would be easily noticed."

Hahahahahaha.

Absolutely ridiculous. Half of one squirt would be easily noticed. Two squirts is a big gooey mess. It takes about thirty seconds to rub in two squirts with vigorous rubbing, and it leaves the skin feeling very sticky.

Would you imagine that someone could rub a tablespoon of thick sun block on Galen without being noticed?

This is the worst lie I've heard since Mo Farah said that he was in the shower and couldn't hear the drug tester ringing his doorbell . . . for an hour.

The American Academy of Pediatrics numbers are a shocker! 11% have tried HGH?

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/performance-enhancing-substances-rise-in-high-school-sports#2

Roelants wrote:

Bottom line, Magness appears to have imagined a scenario to fit his narrative about the Oregon Project and me without regard for the facts and circumstances of what actually occurred.

Or, Salazar fabricated his claims. Time may tell who is closer to the truth.

For now, I'm going with Magness.

Taking a couple sentences out of order, I'd like to make a few points.

rekrunnner wrote:

These "controversies" you speak of are all readily explainable when you presume innocence instead of guilt.

For someone who didn't presume anything about Salazar's guilt (e.g. me) the androgel experiment on Salizar's sons looks very bad because this experiment gives a coach precisely what he needs to dope his athletes. Yes, his sabotage justification is possible but it's not particularly believable which leads me to:

rekrunnner wrote:

...He's quite the innovative genius. Always looking ahead and foreseeing possible problems. Always looking out for his athletes.

I agree Salazar is smart which is what makes it so hard to wrap my head around his explanation for this Androgel-positive-test-triggering experiment because the risk/reward balance is so heavily skewed against running this test. On one hand you have the small chance that an enemy of the NOP would secretly rub androgel on Rupp but on the other hand the much larger chance that this test become public and everyone assume the entire NOP is dirty to the core.

If Salazar really is being honest, running this test amounts to a colossal lapse in judgement, perhaps clinical paranoia. Just to throw out a pet theory but when the Propublica articles first came out it occurred to me that if Salazar has a paranoid mental health condition it explains some of the evidence and criticisms of him, for example, the androgel test on his sons, the pills mailed in hollowed out books, the perceived secrecy surrounding Salazar and Rupp's "inner circle." My broader point is that Salazar would need to be crazy to run this androgel test for the reason given.

Seriously? Again with this? wrote:

Can't I just enjoy one track championships without hearing about Kara or thyroid meds?

Or beta-3 antagonists acquired under a TUE, or IGF-1, or HGH, or exogenous Testosterone use.

Unfortunately, Nike/USATF make that impossible.

I'm glad that papers were filed in court to compel Dr. Brown to sit for a deposition as otherwise we would not have any idea how thorough USADA is being in their investigations as they don't publicly comment on what they are doing. However, I am not sure that the details of the deposition will be made public, although if not, I'm sure some information (along with plenty of speculation) will at least leak out.

I don't know why people are still hyperventilating over the Androgel experiment. We already know this information. Salazar has publicly gone on record admitting to it and explained his actions with a fair amount of detail. If something was done illegally or in violation of the governing boards of athletics, action could have already been taken. Even if the reason for no action is a statute of limitation, you would think that USADA would at least publicly admonish Salazar for his actions and send a message to other coaches and athletes that such actions could result in a ban in the future. I imagine that USADA may ask Dr. Brown about his knowledge regarding the Androgel experiments but I just see that as USADA being thorough in case Dr. Brown has additional information not known to USADA at this time.

I'm also glad that we may get some additional information about prescribing thyroid medications to athletes. I actually expect that this is where USADA will focus the bulk of their inquiries as this appears to be Dr. Brown's area of specialty and expertise. I don't expect much to come of this as there is no scientific proof that prescribed thyroid medication has any performance enhancing benefits. It is not a banned substance. If you need thyroid medication, it is to get your thyroid functioning within a normal range which will prevent degradation of an athlete's performance from a medical condition but will not enhance an athlete's performance beyond that of any other athlete with a thyroid functioning within a normal range.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Otherwise you would have to believe there was only one qualified endocrinologist in the U.S. and just accept the sudden outbreak of endocrinology crises in Track and Field as normal.

Well, do we assume James Andrews is the only orthopedic surgeon in the US just because he has treated a lot of athletes?

Just to be clear - the language you quoted was a quote from Salazar.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Roelants wrote:

Bottom line, Magness appears to have imagined a scenario to fit his narrative about the Oregon Project and me without regard for the facts and circumstances of what actually occurred.

Or, Salazar fabricated his claims. Time may tell who is closer to the truth.

For now, I'm going with Magness.