RE: Why all the praise for Mohammed Ali (really Cassius Clay) he was a draft dodger loud mouth

To the OP, why is he "really Cassius Clay?"

Does he not have the right to choose his own name?

I assume you hold the same disdain for all draft dodgers? At least Ali had the guts to pay a price for his moral stand, unlike, say Donald Trump.

rojo wrote:

You left out the part about he evolved from that. From the very same article,

"It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew. When you believe in God, you should believe that all people are part of one family. ”

Yes, those are the "people of the book". And Christians and Jews are OK as long as they pay Jizya - tax - to the Muslims. Otherwise they're killed. And people of other faiths and atheists must either convert or die. So yes, he was a true Muslim.

spoken like a true muzz wrote:

rojo wrote:

You left out the part about he evolved from that. From the very same article,

"It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew. When you believe in God, you should believe that all people are part of one family. ”

Yes, those are the "people of the book". And Christians and Jews are OK as long as they pay Jizya - tax - to the Muslims. Otherwise they're killed. And people of other faiths and atheists must either convert or die. So yes, he was a true Muslim.

So, it's OK to use literal interpretations of one religious book. I assume you're good with doing that with Christianity too, right?

Ali was a very controversial figure in his heyday. Lots of people would root against him a "heel" (like in professional wrestling), which he probably didn't mind.

Over time, views soften and people remember now what a good boxer and showman he was and for most Ali haters the good came to outweigh the bad. The loud mouth was partly an act and not intended to be taken entirely seriously. He was a sincere conscientious objector and was willing to pay the price for not serving -- which is more than can be said for many people (including some current politicians) who legally dodged service through deferments, the lottery, or other devices.

Father Time wins again wrote:

Ali was a very controversial figure in his heyday. Lots of people would root against him a "heel" (like in professional wrestling), which he probably didn't mind.

Over time, views soften and people remember now what a good boxer and showman he was and for most Ali haters the good came to outweigh the bad. The loud mouth was partly an act and not intended to be taken entirely seriously. He was a sincere conscientious objector and was willing to pay the price for not serving -- which is more than can be said for many people (including some current politicians) who legally dodged service through deferments, the lottery, or other devices.

SOME??? I'd say most.

I can live with his draft avoidance...and I admire him for not following the script for black men in the 60s.

What I can't live with is his poor sportsmanship. Well it's not even poor, it's non existent.

So I admire his behavior as a rebel public figure. But as an athlete? I don't respect him at all and am in fact repulsed by him.

Ali was a genuine conscientious objector, not a draft dodger (of which there were many in those years). The Army was ready and willing to make Ali a poster boy and give him a billet where he could train and box during his service time, but refused that based on his conversion to Islam. He gave up what probably would have been the most productive years of his career, age 25 to 29, to stick with appealing his conviction for draft evasion.

N0bama... wrote:

spoken like a true muzz wrote:

Yes, those are the "people of the book". And Christians and Jews are OK as long as they pay Jizya - tax - to the Muslims. Otherwise they're killed. And people of other faiths and atheists must either convert or die. So yes, he was a true Muslim.

So, it's OK to use literal interpretations of one religious book. I assume you're good with doing that with Christianity too, right?

To Muslims the Quran is the true word of Allah as spoken by his messenger Muhammad. To Christians the Bible is a collection of scriptures assembled and edited long after the death of Jesus.

Didn't you learn anything in school?

As an atheist I'm accepted by both Christians and Jews. And atheism is largely a product of the ethics in these two religions. But there are no atheists in Muslim countries. They've all been killed in accordance with the Quran.

Father Time wins again wrote:

Ali was a very controversial figure in his heyday. Lots of people would root against him a "heel" (like in professional wrestling), which he probably didn't mind.

Over time, views soften and people remember now what a good boxer and showman he was and for most Ali haters the good came to outweigh the bad. The loud mouth was partly an act and not intended to be taken entirely seriously. He was a sincere conscientious objector and was willing to pay the price for not serving -- which is more than can be said for many people (including some current politicians) who legally dodged service through deferments, the lottery, or other devices.

The key word there is LEGALLY. Even Bill Clinton (and the conservatives mentioned in previous posts) followed the law. Ali was a draft "dodger" (in the parlance of the times) because his refusal to serve was not legal. I have a lot of respect for the man because he did that in the face of very severe repercussions, he walked the walk. But, he was a loud-mouthed jerk for the most part. Later in life he softened a little.

This statement from Ali should clear some things up about the man:

Public Statement from Muhammad Ali

The Islamic Institute, in our effort to keep the American Muslim community informed of the comments of public figures in the wake of the attacks on New York and Washington, would like to share the comments of former heavyweight boxing champion and American Muslim Muhammad Ali. The Islamic Institute would like to applaud Mr. Ali for his statement. The text of the public statement from Mr. Ali follows:

"I am a Muslim. I am an American. As an American Muslim, I want to express my deep sadness and anguish at the tremendous loss of life that occurred on Tuesday.

Islam is a religion of peace. Islam does not promote terrorism or the killing of people.

I cannot sit by and let the world think that Islam is a killing religion. It hurts me to see what radical people are doing in the name of Islam. These radicals are doing things that God is against. Muslims do not believe in violence.

If the culprits are Muslim, they have twisted the teachings of Islam. Whoever performed, or is behind, the terrorist attacks in the United States of America does not represent Islam. God is not behind assassins. Anyone involved in this must pay for their evil.

Hatred caused this tragedy and adding to the hatred that already exists in the world will not help. Instead, we should try to understand each other better.

Americans are warm, loving and hospitable people, and we share many of the same values. I ask that churches and synagogues all across the nation invite representatives of the Islamic faith into their places of worship, to better understand Islam. This could help us all respect each other more.

I pray that God blesses the people and families of those who were killed, and our great country."

__________________________________________________________________________

Islamic Institute

Washington, DC 20036

The heavyweight champion of the world's draft number came up? After he became a Muslim? After he aligned with Elijah Muhammad?

Come on, he was railroaded by the government and was right to stand up for himself. Look at the MLB, NFL, NBA and tell me how many other star player's draft numbers happened to come up. How many other fighters who held championship belts had their number come up? Very few. But Muhammad Ali's number came up. It was all so rigged it wasn't even funny.

uhhhduhhhh wrote:The key word there is LEGALLY. Even Bill Clinton (and the conservatives mentioned in previous posts) followed the law. Ali was a draft "dodger" (in the parlance of the times) because his refusal to serve was not legal.

Actually, 4 Supreme Court justices thought his refusal to serve was legal and 4 did not. All 8 agreed that his conviction had to be reversed on a technicality.

In any case, Ali's refusal to serve was done openly for reasons of conscience and he did not just weasel out of service like both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.

Keep in mind what the Nation of Islam's belief system was. They had no interest in political correctness.

They believed that the way for a black man to feel proud of themselves, is by being proud of themselves. Its that simple.

That was in sharp contrast to the more mainstream civil rights movement. That movement was built on the Supreme court ruling of Brown vs Board of Education that legally ended segregation. The winning argument in that case was that segregation itself created negative psychological effects even if segregated schools were deemed equal in quality. That gave rise to the political correctness we know today. Nothing wrong with that. But it shouldn't be taken for granted. In the early 50s that legal theory was strange and out of left field, even for many who wanted to end segregation. The Nation of Islam never had any interest in that theory.

You need to know that context to understand Ali's controversial quotes and antics. When he was mocking Frazier as a "gorilla", it was just that. It wasn't any negative racial stereotyping. Ali never believed in that to begin with and felt it was Frazier's problem if his pride depended on positive image reinforcement in the media. Criticize it if you want. But it was carefully, considered and consistent with Ali's belief system.

btownrunnin wrote:

The heavyweight champion of the world's draft number came up? After he became a Muslim? After he aligned with Elijah Muhammad?

Come on, he was railroaded by the government and was right to stand up for himself. Look at the MLB, NFL, NBA and tell me how many other star player's draft numbers happened to come up. How many other fighters who held championship belts had their number come up? Very few. But Muhammad Ali's number came up. It was all so rigged it wasn't even funny.

Yeah there is no way it could possibly be random luck right? I mean its not like other big celebrities had their draft numbers ever come up. I mean just imagine if someone like Elvis Presley had been drafted.

Vietnam vet wrote:

Ali was a genuine conscientious objector, not a draft dodger (of which there were many in those years). The Army was ready and willing to make Ali a poster boy and give him a billet where he could train and box during his service time, but refused that based on his conversion to Islam. He gave up what probably would have been the most productive years of his career, age 25 to 29, to stick with appealing his conviction for draft evasion.

He wouldn't have been professionally boxing while he was in the service. He stayed home and worked out instead.

I didn't read what the army's plan was for him? The Islam religion would allow him to go to war? You can write that with a straight face.

Father Time wins again wrote:

Ali was a very controversial figure in his heyday. Lots of people would root against him a "heel" (like in professional wrestling), which he probably didn't mind.

The loud mouth was partly an act and not intended to be taken entirely seriously. .

Ask Joe Frazier, "the uncle tom" and Sonny Liston the disrespected champion, if it was just an act all in fun.

Ask the numerous boxers of lesser talent who were ridiculed in the ring if it was all in fun.

Don't whitewash his boorish behavior.