ADVICE REQUESTED: Please Help a Stagnated Distance Runner in His Last Season

I think it is safe to say that you are doing TOO MUCH. You need to slow down. Some of those workouts seem rather intense, I mean a race and than form drills and uphill sprints? That's not what it is suppossed to be like on the day of the race. I think you have to learn to rest. The desire to be good is absolutely nothing without the desire to train smart. You can train hard and not train smart. Listen to some of these people on the board, they know what they are talking about. But my advice is simply this: slow down. Being patient is one of the hardest things that you may ever have to do in your entire life, but you must learn to do it.

It's indicative of lots of inexperienced runners to do this sort of thing. I'm not a great runner or even a good one, but I often find myself doing trackwork after only a month or so of base work or running hard 4 days a week. Sometimes it's hard to be patient and spend a few weeks just going out and running long at a medium effort, but it pays off.

I am surprised as I did not think it was that intense.

Really, I can say that none of the above is anaerobic.

On nothing do I tie up. It is less than I do most winters because of the snow and cold which makes things difficult.

All the strides and short hill sprints are alactic.

The "track work" is only at threshold pace, no faster. It is steady but does not exceed the threshold.

I think the continual short, short strides really help my speed.

I have never run a 400m race, but I bet my time is not as fast as the 4:29 miler on my team, or even some other guys.

I think if I dropped all of it completely I would get worse. I am still doing for me relatively long singles in high mileage weeks (10-13 in singles per day).

Actually, the description you gave about running the race over again fits me.

In that one 1600 race, my splits were mostly even aside from going out slightly faster (77 first lap, 80.75 average) and after the normal feeling of death on a plate for the first few minutes, I was recovered and could do it again.

So now I am somewhat confused.

As I said above, I think the short hill sprints are good for maintaining or improving speed when I cannot do normal strides on grass because of snow. The hill "repeats" are not hard. It is 40-60m will full recovery.

The 6 x 30 sec. is just for variation in the middle of an easy run. My pace is slow so I do it for variety. It is not hard or tiring in any way.

As for working out too much, my "hard" workouts are really not hard.

It is the only way I can describe it for people who do not observe me doing the sessions. Everything is relaxed and within myself. If you say "3 x 1 mile" that is at threshold pace. Any extended work is all at threshold pace.

Occasionally I have a bad workout and it is harder than it should be, but this is infrequent.

So really, I am not "blowing out the tubes" on anything at all.

The problem is, if I did only easy distance for a month, I am certain I would lose a lot. My outdoor season begins in late March. Therefore, I have only about 2 months. I have spent a good deal of time trying to build my threshold.

I feel I would lose this if I ignored it for a month.

Especially if I did no strides for a whole month I would lose the little speed I have.

As you can say, I normally do 150's with the last 2 as fast as possible.

Because of wind and wearing heavy clothes, this might be a bit slower than if I was racing in spikes, but the last, my fastest, is 21. There are many who can run faster, so with the strides I am always trying to maintain and improve basic speed so I can use what endurance I have to get faster.

I will try to take it easier. This week I am doing easy distance, strides, and a little faster continuous runs.

stud800runner152 wrote:

I think it is safe to say that you are doing TOO MUCH. You need to slow down. Some of those workouts seem rather intense, I mean a race and than form drills and uphill sprints? That's not what it is suppossed to be like on the day of the race. I think you have to learn to rest. The desire to be good is absolutely nothing without the desire to train smart. You can train hard and not train smart. Listen to some of these people on the board, they know what they are talking about. But my advice is simply this: slow down. Being patient is one of the hardest things that you may ever have to do in your entire life, but you must learn to do it.

The race was so awful that I felt the need to get something harder in there. The uphill sprints are short and not taxing. They are done only for a neuromuscular effect.

It is hard for me to hear this knowing that my easy runs are VERY slow. I start off at almost walking speed. The first mile may be 9:00-9:20 and it does not get much faster. The fastest miles are maybe 8:40 on an easy run. This is slower perhaps than summer because of wind/cold.

Everything feels reasonably easy and not a problem.

So to be honest, in accord with everyone's advice, I really do not know how to train any easier.

Do my runs at 11 minute pace? Do no strides at all?

It is frustrating because I do not train any harder than others on my team running a great deal faster.

Good discussion; Renato should stop in here. Maybe he can help.

This is hard to say, but I think that you should retire from the sport.

For every Alan Webb, there’s somebody at the opposite end of the bell curve. You work admirably hard for the results you’re getting. Great to see your interest in the sport, too.

Finish out your senior season, and get on with your life. There are lots of satisfying activities out there.

what you're doing isn't working, so why not back off and see if it helps? taking a few weeks off from strides and workout will not cause you to lose anything; in fact, i think you'll feel better at the end of it.

i always felt best at the start of cross-country season, after running distance, long runs, and tempos. could even run a solid mile off that alone.

give it a shot. what do have to lose at this point?

First off, I feel for you. You are extremely hard working and dedicated. Unlike others on this board, I say stick with it, as long as you still enjoy the sport. You may eventually run fast enough to make a D1 team, or you might develop into a respectable marathoner later on in life, you never know. From what little I've read, I'd say you are training too hard, and probably putting way too much pressure on yourself to run fast. Just run as good as you can in races, and learn from each one. You might want to incorporate weight lifting and strength work into your training, if you don't already. Diet is also important. Try to enjoy your senior year, and remember that there is a lot more in life than running, though running might be the most important thing in your life right now.

Good Luck,

Chris

I think Chris here has a good suggestion for you. You sound pretty small and prone to injury - doing some additional strength training or lifting might be just what you need. Also, it seems to be absent from your current training regimen. There must be some reason that even off 50-60MPW you can only run 5:23, right?? Hell, I've run 4:23 off 20MPW. Further, I've never met a solid miler who didnt do some form of strength training to supplement running. Its worth a try for you I think, although the results will not be immeadiate.

I went on to run at a very good D1 college. My high school XC PR was slower than yours. In addition, judging by the circumstances/time frame of your 1500m/mile/3200m track PR's, you may have been very comparable to where I was in those distances.

ttc wrote:

I went on to run at a very good D1 college. My high school XC PR was slower than yours. In addition, judging by the circumstances/time frame of your 1500m/mile/3200m track PR's, you may have been very comparable to where I was in those distances.

Each of these statements are true for me as well. Thing is, I was a 400 meter runner, and my 200/400/800 were considerably better. And I wasn't any good.

Look, I'm not trying to be jerk here, but somebody needs to throw a bucket of cold water on this. These are the worst times I've ever seen for any HS boy at this level of training/years of experience/level of knowledge and interest. Even if many of us would do the specifics differently in putting together his training program, even getting it wrong at this time commitment/volume, he ought to be better. Unless he just flat doesn't have the talent.

To pump up his dream based on his background does him an injustice.

Thank you for the advice. I am pretty careful with diet and sleep. I eat healthily.

I also use hill bounding, form drills, and lighter plyometrics. The one and only time I did some weight lifting when I had an injury, I strained a muscle so badly that I felt it for months afterward. I think the hills are a good running-specific work.

It is difficult to enjoy a year having devoted a great deal of time to an activity and turning out such poor results.

bingo wrote:

I think Chris here has a good suggestion for you. You sound pretty small and prone to injury - doing some additional strength training or lifting might be just what you need. Also, it seems to be absent from your current training regimen. There must be some reason that even off 50-60MPW you can only run 5:23, right?? Hell, I've run 4:23 off 20MPW. Further, I've never met a solid miler who didnt do some form of strength training to supplement running. Its worth a try for you I think, although the results will not be immeadiate.

I am also at a loss for that time. It was on a slippery indoor track and you cannot wear spikes. I had also done no anaerobic work to speak of, but I would think I could normally run 5:23 in basketball shoes after waking up from sleeping. I do not know what happened either.

ttc wrote:

I went on to run at a very good D1 college. My high school XC PR was slower than yours. In addition, judging by the circumstances/time frame of your 1500m/mile/3200m track PR's, you may have been very comparable to where I was in those distances.

That is good to know. The 5K X-C PR was after a fairly good season and I finished knowing I could go faster in the future. It is one of the few races I was midly satisfied with at the time.

Don't worry about your runs being slow -- 8:40 pace isn't THAT bad...

It sounds to me like you do your runs on your own. It's always been very hard for me to improve if i don't have someone to run with a few times a week. That might help things out for you as well, but i'm just guessing.

I'm not sure when you said you look very young, like a 13 year old -- does it mean you haven't really hit puberty yet? If so, you've got some other things to worry about, and it would be good to clarify i think.

Good luck :-)

You may not be a great runner, but your knowledge of training is higher than about 95% of runners in high school or college. Think about coachin, etc. in college. Maybe a student manager that runs with the team in practice. You also write very well. Hook up with Runner's World after you graduate and write for them, because you seem to love running and have a talent for getting your point across.

I don't know what you expect me to say; I posted this query because I know that this board consists of a number of very dedicated, very talented runners, some of whom undoubtedly must have at some point suffered a similar lack of progress.

As for talent, I provided my family's history with athletics.

I have always played sports for as long as I can remember.

I was a pretty good basketball player (not my observation, but that of coaches and apparently the camps I went to where I won awards) before I had to stop because I was too short.

I always usually won the gym mile and actually had the school record in 8th grade (5:42).

To give you an idea of talent: I ran 19:02 for a 5,000m road race in 8th grade off basically no formal training to speak of. My only background was several short, fast runs per week. I really knew nothing of base training, strides, or anything else. It is not an earth shattering mark like Bekele running 8:47 for 3200 off of nothing, but I can tell you I knew of no other 8th grader capable of a 19:02 5K.

Another example that should clarify things: In 7th grade, I ran the mile in gym in 5:57. I had never trained EVER. This was in basketball sneakers.

I am now 17, and after training for a long time, I ran (last track season at 16) 4:46 for 1500. This converts to abot 5:06 for the mile.

So from age 12 (7th grade) I went from 5:57 without training in basketball shoes in gym class to age 16 (11th grade) in spikes in a race with THOUSANDS of miles, speedwork, and every other training component you can think of, to the equivalent of a 5:06.

51 seconds in 4 years (make it 5, as I still have failed to improve upon it.

So it is not, I think, that I lack talent. I simply have not been able to progress with what talent I have.

You do not need to tell me my times are "as bad as you ever heard of." Don't you think I know? I follow the sport. It is especially discouraging to read some of the stuff on this board, where it seems EVERYONE ran 4:50 freshman year of high school in hiking boots with the flu on 15 miles per week.

In my area, I cam 45th in my league varsity cross-country championship, 1:32 behind the winner (16:15 to my 17:47). I was consistently 2-4 on my varsity team.

These are not impressive accomplishments, per se, but it is something to build on in the hopes that at some point in a 4 year college stint, with better training, I can compete.

In the PR list I provided above, I mentioned I do 150m in workouts regularly in 21 seconds. That means I could probably, in a race wearing spikes, run about a 60 second 400.

There are hoards of runners with 60 second 400 speed that have run eons faster even for the mile and the 800 than I have run.

This means I am doing at least something wrong. If I get stronger, I can take some time off the mile and the 5K.

I am also always working to get faster in a basic sense (200-400m speed) so with the same strength I can run faster (so, for example, if I ran 4:32 with 60 second 400 speed (which is possible, so I am 34 seconds behind at least), if I ran 57 for 400, 68 for 4 laps is now too slow and I can 65 for 4 laps, or 4:20).

This is my theory.

In short, I am very appreciative of some of the useful advice people have offered me.

If you, the above poster who I am replying to, can offer something, I would also appreciate it.

If I am "one of the worst you have ever seen" it seems that you have something to offer in the way of suggestions for me to improve.

I am not talented as you may think of it, but there are people worse off than me in many senses (not just running). As I have spent much energy in this pursuit, it is best if you say what I can do to be better rather than lamenting that I need to get better.

I already know that.

kjfsajfd wrote:

Don't worry about your runs being slow -- 8:40 pace isn't THAT bad...

It sounds to me like you do your runs on your own. It's always been very hard for me to improve if i don't have someone to run with a few times a week. That might help things out for you as well, but i'm just guessing.

I'm not sure when you said you look very young, like a 13 year old -- does it mean you haven't really hit puberty yet? If so, you've got some other things to worry about, and it would be good to clarify i think.

Good luck :-)

It is interesting you mention that; right now, at 17, I am 5'4", 108 pounds. My mom took me to a nutrionist and I actually gained a good deal of weight.

In the summer 2003 I was 5'0", 82 pounds. So 26 pounds heavier, 4 inches taller (I believe normally 5.5 pounds is alloted for each inch, so 4 inches is 22 pounds).

I was also given some sort of growth hormone at the insistence of an endocrinologist even though my levels were normal.

Regardless, I am still just about as short and light as anyone.

I am regularly confused for a freshman and one time my cousin went around asking random people on the street to look at me and guess my age. I believe the lowest number offered was 11 or 12. So you can get the idea that I am quite physically underdeveloped.

I do not accept this as my sole limitation, though.

Haile Gebrselassie is 5'4" like I am and even heavier, and his 5,000 is some 5:18 faster than mine.