Genetic determine the ceiling you can possibly reach.
No one in the history of distance running has ever reached that limit. No one has ever had ideal training and recovery throughout life.
The harder & smarter you work, the closer you get to that ceiling. And that ceiling is much higher than what many genetically gifted runners reach with their half-hearted efforts.
That should obviously be "Kenenisa Bekele" above. Autocorrect... rawr.
Liking vs not liking running is genetic.
While the OP may think she has no genetic talent, just the fact that she likes running most likely means she has more genetic talent for running than she does for say singing or high jumping or political science.
There is no such thing as "no genetic talent".
Unless of course one has no genes. Do you lack genes entirely?
The thing is that running at a high level, especially for months and years at a time, actually changes your genetics to some degree. Physiologically, your muscles and tendons will change a lot. Your cells will increase the number of mitochondria, your capillaries will increase, to get oxygen to your body...
Almost no high schoolers put in the kind of work to really get these sort of results, and I don't think that's a bad thing. If you want to really find out what your potential is, you need to increase your training volume and intensity a lot, over a period of months. In my opinion, people who are supposedly talented, in terms of achieving high performances, are also often less injury prone, or are more aware of how much is too much, so they are less injured and burnt out for that reason.
If you really want to try to improve drastically, focus on putting in the work. Learn to love it. Don't stress if you have an off day or week. If you feel bad, put in some easy miles anyways. After a while your body gets the hint, and starts to make some big changes. Make sure to get good nutrition and rest. You have to think months ahead, and this requires focus.
"Body type" is not a huge determining factor, in my opinion. In fact, I think "body type" is a myth to some degree. Especially for girls, I see short muscular girls running fast times, and tall skinny girls running fast times. To run fast, you have to believe that you can do it. Don't count yourself out just because you think your family isn't naturally built for running.
hu wrote:
The Donger wrote:I remember on this board when the majority thought it came down to good coaching and mileage. No doubt important but genetics is the major determining factor in performance.
Interesting that now scientists are saying determination, drive, focus, etc. are also linked genetically.
How exactly do you know it's the major determining factor? You can't assign a value to something you don't know exists. Scientists are not saying that. SOME scientists are saying that. And they are not saying what you are saying. "Linked" is not the same as "caused".
I do know genes exist. I do know environmental factors and stress affects those genes.
Some people are prone to addiction. Some cancer. It's all because of genetics.
As mentioned, one's ceiling is 27 min 10k another 38. Even if the latter was brought up in the perfect environment and trained perfectly he would not ever be a 27 min 10k runner.
Nor will I ever jump 8 feet in the high jump, dunk a basketball, throw a 100 mph fastball, play in the NFL... It's determined by our genes. Faith is good but let's be real, it's all about science.
'hu" is a George Costanza type who believes he will one day become a 27 minute Brad Pitt type because nobody knows if those combinations of genes exist.
High School Runner wrote:
I am a 17 year old female high school distance runner. Running has never come easy to me. My family isn't really built for running and they have never been super intense runners. I started cross country freshman year in high school and found it super tough for me at first. Over time, I have improved a lot. I am a very hard worker and always challenge. Is it possible that I could still be very successful in running even if I don't have all the genetic talent in the world?
While there may be limits to how far you can go, as there is for everyone I believe If you work hard and keep your training consistent, the sky is the limit. I know plenty of people that where not fast in high school or even college that have developed into phenomenal athletes. Here are a few pointers
1. Don't worry about what every one else is running or there ability level.Every one is different
2. Focus on yourself, and your own accomplishments
3. Keep a record of miles ran per a day, workouts, pr's(include list of the course etc)
4. Eat healthy for the most part!!
5. Get a coach, or Join a running club in your area, even during your college years, it will give you people to run with and also talk to about running.
6. There will probably be a period of time you may not see any improvements or you might slide backwards, don't let that bring you down, as you will probably be on the verge of success.
I could go on and on
hu wrote:
supercool lib-person wrote:This is the right answer. Genetics is by far the biggest determinant of success in running. It takes 1 in 10,000 talent even to make it to the national level.
This is nonsense. Genetics is not a determinant because no one knows which genes, if any, are important for running ability. Your 1 in 10,000 number is certainly madeup.
No one knows how good you can be. Go try your best and see what happens.
It is nonsense because scientists don't know all the genes and gene interactions that make good runners, so they simply don't know how it all works. There are definitely genes (aRCBCOIKOEM) that are essential for successful distance running, but therein you would need to define successful. The only people I can imagine (as by country or ethnicity) that might be considered unsuccessful at distance running is highly specialized spring types. In other words, if you are really really good at sprinting then GENETICALLY you might be bad at long distance running (over 1500m) since fast twitch fibers don't allow as much space for aerobic producing organelles, namely mitochondria. Phew, that's a lot of BS for one day. Basically genetics are important, but the fact that you have improved a lot (I mean the OP) indicates that you have trainability, and that indicates that you can be successful in terms of improving your running.
But you do not have a talent for asking specific questions.
When speaking of talent it is important to first define what talent is.
Talent can come in many different forms when related to running. There are anatomical t=advantages that help. Obviously a skinny 5 foot 8 guy is going to be a better runner than a huger 6 foot 5 muscled athlete your probably more suited for football. So that's one form of talent
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Then there are obvious physiological advantages such as:
- You could have more motor neurons in your muscles which could give you a good kick and potentially make you a good 800m runner
-You could have a higher natural vo2max, which makes you better overall but much more so in the longer events
-you could have a high lactate threshold, this again makes you better overall but makes a bigger impact on shorter events such as 1500
-You could have a better metabolism which helps with endurance and helps with the loooonnngggg distances such as half marathon or marathon.
These are the obvious ones that we think of and these four talents can be trained and increased. But they are not the only talents. Here are some others that we don't think of as often
-Ability to recover, makes it so you can do more harder workouts more frequently, Prefontaine had a huge natural ability to recover.
-ability to improve faster, Jim Ryun started off running very poorly. His first one mile time was 5:38 and his two mile time was 11:51. He only made the team in the two mile. He obviously improved. When he stopped running in the 1970's for a while his vo2max was tested and it was very low, but he was able to improve it very drastically in just two years
-ability to take a higher workload. If you can't run 100 miles a week you will typically not be able to run professionally or even well in college. Typically, if you cant run 55-60 miles a week in high school, depending on the event, you will never make. There are always exceptions.
-running economy. Your running economy is basically how much energy/oxygen your body demands for a particular speed. Joaquim Cruz had a very good running economy at 800m speed but did not have good running economy above and below that. As another example Jack Daniels, who used to compete in the modern pentathlon, had a rival who had the same speed as him. His competitor had a higher vo2max but a lower running economy and Daniels was basically the opposite. You can have a high vo2max but a terrible running economy and you won't be crap.
Most of these less thought of talents cant really be improved that much, aside from running economy. On the other hand the opposite can be said about the four most thought of talents.
-Motor Neurons-Motor Neurons are the neurological particles in your muscles that get signals from your nerves that in turn causes your muscle to contract or relax. The more neurons you have the more forcibly your muscle can contract. The theory behind having more neurons in your muscle being beneficial for distance running is that the more motor neurons your have the less hard your body has to work in order to get more a more powerful stride. This is primarily being utilized by the NOP. This can be improved by doing multiple different things. Examples: doing runs over hilly course, short sprints at max speed either on flat ground or hill, and weightlifting with high weight low rep.
-Vo2max-There are multiple different ways to improve this.
The most common is running from 800m-1 mile at your vo2max pace. You can also just run. If you run at an easy pace or a moderate pace this improves your aerobic ability tremendously, but only for so much. You can also train at altitude, which improves red blood cell count which then improves your vo2.
-Lactate Threshold-This term has been used in many different ways and all are different things. There is Lactic Power which is how much lactate your body produces, think 400-800. Most people think that lactic acid is bad. This is actually not true, it is actually a very good, if not the most important, form of fuel your body uses when running faster. The bad part is your bodies inability to process the hydrogen that is left over from your bodies burning of lactic acid. This is where the burning sensation comes from. This is improved with intervals of 400m-600m with 1-3 reps with 12/15 mins of rest. There is also lactic capacity which is your bodies ability to withstand high amounts of lactic acid, think 800-1500. This is improved by using intervals of 400m-600m for 3-5 reps at 800m pace or slightly faster than 800m pace with 6/8 minutes of recovery. There is also lactic speed endurance which is your bodies ability to go fast while under high lactic acid, think 1500-3000. This is improved with intervals of 400m-800m with 6-10 reps at 1500m pace to 3000m pace with 2:00/4:00 min of rec. Then there is lactic endurance which is the ability to run for a long time with high amounts of lactic acid, think 5000-10000.This is improved with intervals for the different events. For 5000m do intervals of 600-2000m with 10-3 reps at slightly faster to slightly slower than 5000m pace with 1:30/5:00 min of rec. For 10000m do intervals of 600m-2000m with reps of 15-4 at or slightly faster than 10000m pace with rest of 1:30/4 min pace. Then there is lactate threshold, think half marathon. Your lactate threshold is the pace/speed where your body starts producing lactic acid faster than your body can clear the hydrogen atoms that are left over. By running at this pace your essentially increase your endurance. This is best improved with a continuous fartlek style workout totaling 6-8 miles with 400m-1000m at, slightly slower, or slightly faster than half marathon pace and 1200m-600m at a pace that is 40 sec-20 sec per mile slower than half-marathon pace. Each "faster slower" interval needs to total 1600m. All of these thing have some influence on lactate threshold.
-running economy-standard intervals at the pace your want to race will improve the running economy for that particular race. Strides 100m-150m strides totaling 1 mile with 1 min rest is a great workout for improving and strengthening stride length. Strides are the best for 1500/mile in my opinion. Also running on hills, either hill sprints, hill intervals, or hill runs. Race relevant weightlifting is also very important. This means that your muscles need to contract the way they do when you run. Your quads need to contract eccentrically, your glutes and hamstrings need to contract concentrically. Also working on your bio-mechanics by doing stability exercise for your hip, ankle, and knee.
Other talents such as recovery that cannot be improved with working out. Weightlifting can help with durability but mainly with stability or bone density but that's pretty much it. Other talents are improved with healthy life style, diet, and supplements.
Any questions?
to be successful you have to have some genetic talent. That being said, most people wouldn't even know. If your parents didn't run then or put in hard work to be a runner than you would never know. Think about evan yager, his father struggles to walk well he was born with polio or something like that. Who would of thought his son would be American record holder in a sport he could never do? I also know a girl who wasn't built for running necessarily but she worked hard and ended up being a favorite to win NCAAS XC champs. Now she really changed her body through lots of mileage, weights, etc. Just be smart and enjoy it. Most people even with the talent won't reach these extremes but you can do well for yourself. Success is all defined by you.
good luck
RacingtheCanteloupe wrote:
If you want the best possible answer to your question, read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. If you have any background in biology and basic genetics, you'll walk away so much more knowledgable for having read it. It will go into detail about things like trainability that can only be scratched at surface level here.
So, let's scratch that surface. Kenenisa Belike has a genetic ceiling. I have a genetic ceiling. The difference is that his genetic ceiling is a sub-27 10k and mine is a sub 38. He was born with a higher VO2 max, better running economy, more durable muscles, better muscle-tendon elasticity, a more efficient frame, etc. He also, by virtue of being elite, likely has much better trainability--that is, his body improves more after a given day, week, or month of training than mine does. He is also more determined... I truthfully could not handle the 100-mile weeks ad infinitum that he can. The same would likely be true of you and an elite female runner. I cannot speak for your determination, but all the other factors are likely true.
Scale down this principle. The same is true of me (and likely you) and all D1 athletes and high school state champions. Their genetic ceiling is much higher than mine.
If you accept that running is getting the most of your potential, you can certainly be successful. If your goal is to be a world record holder, my advice is to give up.
In all seriousness though, my advice is to, in the advice of many message boarders here, "Just run, baby." There is no other way to find out what your ceiling is. And there is perhaps no bigger joy than thinking you know what your ceiling was--and breaking it. I'll never run a sub-60 half, but I remember the day I ran 1:24 in the half as an incredibly proud moment-- it was better than I ever really thought I would be. You have moments like that out there... as long as you keep after it.
Great post.
We're talking about high school. With hard work and some durability you can be comparatively decent for high school even with a low genetic ceiling. And you won't know what that ceiling is until you push yourself.
You can still have fun and benefit yourself even if it turns out that you don't have the genetic potential to make state, get an athletic scholarship to a D1 school, etc.
Both my parents ran and were very slow 9-11 min milers. And none of my family are small framed for runners.
I started running at 40. I had to work my ass off with training, speed workouts..etc to finally PR @ 1:33 for a half marathon at age 43.
So IMO you can be a decent runner with no genetic talent but not a standout.
Always being a hard worker is a TalentLoving a challenge is a TalentSticking at something tough and improving a lot is a Talent.You might have more talent than you give yourself credit for.
High School Runner wrote:
I am a 17 year old female high school distance runner. Running has never come easy to me. My family isn't really built for running and they have never been super intense runners. I started cross country freshman year in high school and found it super tough for me at first. Over time, I have improved a lot. I am a very hard worker and always challenge. Is it possible that I could still be very successful in running even if I don't have all the genetic talent in the world?
RacingtheCanteloupe wrote:
So, let's scratch that surface. Kenenisa Belike has a genetic ceiling. I have a genetic ceiling. The difference is that his genetic ceiling is a sub-27 10k and mine is a sub 38. He was born with a higher VO2 max, better running economy, more durable muscles, better muscle-tendon elasticity, a more efficient frame, etc.
No everything you just said is false and made up. How do you not see this?
You've never seen any lab test results measuring his vo2max, his running economy, the durability of his muscles, etc. You are literally making things up and claiming them as facts.
You have no idea what either or your genetic ceilings are. No one does there has never been a gene found that says "you can run a 10k in XX minutes".
You have no idea if 38 minutes is your genetic ceiling or if you just haven't been training correctly. That is a fact and none saying otherwise has no idea what they are talking about and refuse to accept the possibility that they just don't entirely know how to train.
hu[b/]
No everything you just said is false and made up. How do you not see this?
You've never seen any lab test results measuring his vo2max, his running economy, the durability of his muscles, etc. You are literally making things up and claiming them as facts.
You have no idea what either or your genetic ceilings are. No one does there has never been a gene found that says "you can run a 10k in XX minutes".
You have no idea if 38 minutes is your genetic ceiling or if you just haven't been training correctly. That is a fact and none saying otherwise has no idea what they are talking about and refuse to accept the possibility that they just don't entirely know how to train.
Excuse the typos. This keyboard is bad.