Good chance at least one of them was, yes. No red flags anyway. I am not inclined to believe in fairy tales- I'm an atheist. If I believed Paula was clean, then we could invoke tinkerbelle and the Disney castle.
GooooAfrikaaaa wrote:
Belays of glory wrote:Her 2:17 is the only legit comparison, and the several minute gap from that to the next possibly clean time (Yamaguchi? Kastor?) is the blood doping.
Do you really beleive that Yamaguchi and Kastor are clean? You must believe in fairy tales.
Here are some possibilities for reflection to challenge your current mindset:
- Oxygen vector drugs don't improve performance marathons -- which require improved economy and fat burning
- Paula had male escorts/pacemakers. Much easier to run fast with someone than alone -- even if they are not breaking the wind, there is a psychological benefit of not having to maintain the pace.
- Measurably significantly favorable conditions weather and wind from the southeast in London 2003.
- No one tried to run faster. Not many women can/could have run close to 2:15. Those that can are intimidated by the gap.
- Lack of depth/rivalry means not many women can run faster, and those that can aren't forced to -- they can run tactical races and conserve their energy to win.
- Lack of depth means fewer potential pace makers (e.g. 4 women that could bring a group to the half in 67:xx minutes)
- Difficulty to get a fast time getting all the conditions to come together at the same time, combined with lack of depth mean that such attempts have fewer opportunities (compared to the men) meaning longer time between records can be expected.
Forgot to mention use of "legal" support:
- altitude training (making drugs marginal, if not superfluous)
- oxygen tent
- healing Hans for recovery
- professional attention to nutrtion, sleep, and supplementary strength and flexibility training
It now looks like all the top female marathoners were blood doping
Therefore it seems reasonable to assume blood doping is effective at the marathon distance
Who is this Yamaguchi of whom you speak?
rekrunner wrote:
Forgot to mention use of "legal" support:
- altitude training (making drugs marginal, if not superfluous)
- oxygen tent
- healing Hans for recovery
- professional attention to nutrition, sleep, and supplementary strength and flexibility training
plus Hans elixir. plus transfusions. plus plus.
still Paula is in a different category than the Chinese, East Germans, Flo Joe,etc.. who set records. they were on an absolutely no holds barred, hard core program PED program.
rekrunner wrote:
Here are some possibilities for reflection to challenge your current mindset:
- Oxygen vector drugs don't improve performance marathons -- which require improved economy and fat burning . . .
I don't claim any special expertise in physiology, but it's my understanding that "fat burning" metabolic pathways require more oxygen per unit energy produced than glycogen burning pathways.
Most of the Olympic and world champion racewalkers have been busted for EPO
And they don't even breathe hard!
Citizen Runner wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Here are some possibilities for reflection to challenge your current mindset:
- Oxygen vector drugs don't improve performance marathons -- which require improved economy and fat burning . . .
I don't claim any special expertise in physiology, but it's my understanding that "fat burning" metabolic pathways require more oxygen per unit energy produced than glycogen burning pathways.
You would have to be pretty delusional to think that things like EPO don't help the marathon. It is possible they don't help as much as in the 5k (or they might help more).
Paula is an outlier in
a) she has run 14:30/30 min track times. There are not a lot of woman close to those times
b) She had a great endurance ratio. Most people with her 5k/10k times are running 2:19-2:22 type races. You occasionaly get outliers but they aren't very common for people with legit underdistance times (guys like Ryan Hall whose track times are date back several years before they started running world class times don't really count)
Who she? wrote:
Who is this Yamaguchi of whom you speak?
Mara Yamaguchi who is the second fastest British runner of all time. Her best Marathon is 2h 23m 12s which is good but not near the world record.
I've met her and would be amazed if she doped. She didn't make big money out of the sport. She is someone who loves the sport and is now becoming a coach.
Belays of glory wrote:No red flags anyway. I am not inclined to believe in fairy tales
you believe in fairy tales if you want to set an arbitrary baseline of "paula" as the only red flag without any evidence or anecdotes. what makes the 2nd or 3rd fastest woman so special? you're using special pleading and the gambler's fallacy.
you probably also believe in anthropogenic global warming.
you're a truth-denier.
But:- Fat burning is slow. At what rate can you consume oxygen with fat, in l/min?- How much glycogen can you store and replenish during a marathon?How would EPO help these factors?
Citizen Runner wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Here are some possibilities for reflection to challenge your current mindset:
- Oxygen vector drugs don't improve performance marathons -- which require improved economy and fat burning . . .
I don't claim any special expertise in physiology, but it's my understanding that "fat burning" metabolic pathways require more oxygen per unit energy produced than glycogen burning pathways.
Yet it hasn't helped other women come close to Paula -- I think this thread is about "why not?".
sadfasdf@asfdasf.com wrote:
You would have to be pretty delusional to think that things like EPO don't help the marathon. It is possible they don't help as much as in the 5k (or they might help more).
...
^ This is a really good point.
My belief (right or wrong) is that Paula has proven what can be achieved with marginal gains and having a professional team around her. I don't think she is guilty of taking PED's, but I do think she has at least once had ABT's. How much this helped, who knows? Probably a bit, but as stated above, surely others (particularly dopers) should be getting close to her record?
Sorry - my reply above was to Rekrunner.
cleans wrote:
surely others (particularly dopers) should be getting close to her record?
Yes indeed. I think that's the difference between hard-core EPO usage from 2000 - 2003 vs. the current micro-dosing. Best comparable examples: El G and Junxia (not necessarily restricted to EPO). And indeed, I know a few moroccans who swear that El G was clean (great talent, hard training, racing without fear etc.).
Hard + professional training + great talent + good conditions etc. is reproducible, that's just a question of numbers and time. See page 1.
How to explain then that the men did much better in the marathon going from hardcore EPO to micro-dosing?I suspect Junxia (1993) got more benefit from male hormones than EPO.And we know Shobukhova was not microdosing (Off score in the 150's compared to Paula's dehydrated max of 110-115). Likewise Paula doesn't seem to have been hardcore EPO dosing from these marginal scores.
casual obsever wrote:
cleans wrote:surely others (particularly dopers) should be getting close to her record?
Yes indeed. I think that's the difference between hard-core EPO usage from 2000 - 2003 vs. the current micro-dosing. Best comparable examples: El G and Junxia (not necessarily restricted to EPO). And indeed, I know a few moroccans who swear that El G was clean (great talent, hard training, racing without fear etc.).
Hard + professional training + great talent + good conditions etc. is reproducible, that's just a question of numbers and time. See page 1.
she was a supremely talented,brilliant athlete to begin with.drugs or not,shed have still been a top tier world class athlete.her natural talent would have been borderline freakish in the first place.drugs improved on that even more,but drugs only do so much.the talent had to be there in the first place.
Autologus madness wrote:
None of the sub 2:20 women were clean....
Not all world records are equal.
Not all events are equal.
Not all elite athletes are equal in quality.
The womens' events especially. The marathon is full of athletes who found they couldn't hack it at shorter distances. The men's event is more of a competition, with a greater depth of talent. Women not so much.
Look back at the career of Lisa O'Dea, Lisa Martin, Lisa Ondieke.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/bike-fit-and-maintenance/handlebar-reach-how-to-get-it-right-videoA 400 H who moved to distance at the behest of her boyfriend, and soon found a 'talent' for it.
There are a lot of world class joggers in the women's marathon.
Don't forget assistance, to this day, from the international sports federation for Paula.Lance had the cycling federation supporting him until the oprah "interview." Then and only then did Verbruggen claim he was tricked. And, BTW, Verbruggen is back running cycling once more.
Autologus madness wrote:
Yeah, you're right! One of a kind responder to autologus blood transfusion and other PEDs....
macdaddy wrote:Haven't you ever heard the phrase "One of a kind"?