Cadence: Worth working on increasing?

Working in leg speed velocity is pretty important when you're doing speedwork.

Probably the only way to answer this question would be to video tape yourself and see if you are overstriding at those speed and cadence combinations. Then all you have to do is figure out exactly what overstriding is.

nerdierthanrunnerdnerd wrote:

Good point but the OP is not asking about the sprint events. Make a comparison using distance runners to be relevant.

Fine. 2007 world champs. Bekele maintained very close to 1.95m per stride and 190 strides per minute for almost the entire race, running about 64s each lap.

In the last 400 m as he dropped to a 55.5 last lap, he increased stride length to 2.05m per stride and a stride frequency of 216 strides per minute.

Point is that stride frequency and stride length should vary as speed changes.

For the vast majority of people, 180 strides per minute is way too fast for an easy run, it is more in the realm of an appropriate turnover for race paced running.

Daniels wants to sell a book guys, don't take his oversimplifications as gospel for every situation.

I do agree with his general point that most joggers and less competitive runners have too slow of turnover. But people are taking a few lines in his book to mean that 180 is a magical cadence to be followed always.

It isnt, and it shouldnt.

I was feeling bored, so I got some more numbers. I figured I'd stay with one runner.

Bekele's 1500m PR in Shanghai (video on youtube). Final lap he runs about 222 strides per minute. In the homestretch before that final lap, I had him at 208.

I found some footage of him jogging at a moderate pace (looks like about an easy run pace). His turnover is about 170 in this.

So we have a few data points for a single elite runner.

Easy pace: 170

10k pace (64s/400): 190

1500m pace (57s/400): 208

10k "kick" pace (55.5s/400): 216

1500m "kick" pace (just under 55s last 400): 222

Yes, those nubers are in the ball park for Bekele. But he has a unique running style, he keeps the same stride length of 2 meters on the track, regardless of speed. I don't know any other runner who does that,

10k pace (64s/400): 190 = 1.97 meter stride

1500m pace (57s/400): 208 = 2.02 meter stride

10k "kick" pace (55.5s/400): 216 = 2.00 meter stride

1500m "kick" pace (just under 55s last 400): 222 = 1.97 meter stride

max velocity wrote:

Yes, those nubers are in the ball park for Bekele. But he has a unique running style, he keeps the same stride length of 2 meters on the track, regardless of speed. I don't know any other runner who does that,

10k pace (64s/400): 190 = 1.97 meter stride

1500m pace (57s/400): 208 = 2.02 meter stride

10k "kick" pace (55.5s/400): 216 = 2.00 meter stride

1500m "kick" pace (just under 55s last 400): 222 = 1.97 meter stride

That is interesting, I didn't notice how close his stride length was. I'd be curious to get some numbers on other runners too. I don't have time to dig through videos and do that right now though.

And your numbers were approximate, although I don't doubt they are very close, well done there. But that suggests that his stride length is (was) almost exactly 2 meters all of the time in his track races.

From my high school days, I was always told, from serious older athletes and coaches, that 180 is the golden number.

It is true that a "better and better" cadence is mostly won from the process of conditioning.

I buy into working on cadence directly only somewhat:

In my younger days, I had trouble with the 5k distance and was told to work on increasing cadence and it did indeed improve comfort level and basic task execution.

Revisiting this old Cadence thread...

Someone mentioned that bumping up cadence even only 5-10SPM can be low hanging fruit for recreational runners to be better. You improve your gait, recruit bigger muscle groups and get faster while having a better chance of reduced injury by avoiding heal striking. I am trying to grab onto that fruit myself with a metronome.

I am having no problem running 175-180SPM. But it is very difficult to do any zone 2 work with this face foot pace. Is there anyone that can do their easy runs (zone 2) while keeping a snappy cadence? Or do you just abandon high cadence on easy days?

I’m 61, so my leg strength isn’t what it used to be.

For me, cadence affects cardio more and stride length affects leg strength/fatigue more. With lower leg strength, my stride length doesn’t change much (.1 meters) while “running”. When doing strides, it’s .3-.4 meters longer, but I don’t have the leg strength to keep this up for longer distances.

So cadence is important to me and a main focus. In fact, I use cadence to set my paces. For example, I have an “A” half next Saturday. My focus “pace” is actually 172 cadence. I know this will keep my HR at just under my threshold and my stride length will not vary much. I know if I keep this cadence, I’ll have a good, smooth pace that will leave me fresh to slowly increase my cadence in the last 5k, finishing around 180.

When I learned about cadence and how it affects me (new runner of only 6 years), it helped me greatly improve my times and I’m still setting post-college-didn’t-run-for30+-years PRs.

Additional data points is that I see “good”, sub-elites and elites running with high cadence, as previously mentioned in this thread. Im guessing that’s because it’s a very efficient method of endurance running.

Elites don't worry about this stuff. They just run.

My easy run cadence is just over 150 at around 7:40/mile.

At hm race pace (5:52/mile) it is 162, during 3k TT (5:20/mile) it was 170. I am 6'1'' is this cadence to slow and how should one work to improve it? Should you first focus to improve it during workouts or during easy runs?

Totally agree with the low-hanging fruit concept. It makes a huge difference in efficiency and injury prevention to go from, say, 160 to 170, especially at easy pace. It's an easy adjustment, though, and only takes a few weeks to make the adaptations. I find it easy to treadmill work to more easily concentrate on mechanics, and maintain a pretty consistent 175-178 from 6 min pace to 11 min pace (as slow as i can do anything resembling running), and up to 185 at faster paces (sprinting for me at 63). I was chronically injured in my 20's, 30's and 40's. Ironman the last 15 years. The faster cadence will help minimize your foot contact time, and concentrating on minimizing your foot contact time will step up your cadence. Don't worry about magic numbers like 180, but do experiment to see how it feels to adjust it upward (or downward, experimentation can be very instructive).

Cadence Curious wrote:

Revisiting this old Cadence thread...

Someone mentioned that bumping up cadence even only 5-10SPM can be low hanging fruit for recreational runners to be better. You improve your gait, recruit bigger muscle groups and get faster while having a better chance of reduced injury by avoiding heal striking. I am trying to grab onto that fruit myself with a metronome.

I am having no problem running 175-180SPM. But it is very difficult to do any zone 2 work with this face foot pace. Is there anyone that can do their easy runs (zone 2) while keeping a snappy cadence? Or do you just abandon high cadence on easy days?

The main thing here is how You put your foot on the track: the foot under you, do not overstride, dorsiflexia. And you will have the right cadence specifically for your anatomy, the length of the levers, etc. for the current pace. When the pace increases, the body always increases 2 parameters at once and the cadence and the length of the step, and here, too, you need to look, and not whether you overstride. Cadence and stride length are a consequence, not a reason for running properly.

Increase cadence until you are no longer overstriding.

This is easier to figure out by feel if you are wearing a more minimal, lower stack height shoe.

Exactly. Each person will have a sweet spot that, once you develop the proper muscle memory, keeps your landing foot under your center of mass, not ahead of it.

One way to improve your leg speed (keeping in mind that your leg only moves when it's in the air) is to shorten the length of the lever. That's why we do butt kicks and other form drills. Just like a metronome, your leg moves quicker with a high heel recovery because it shortens the lever. You can feel this by standing on one leg and swinging the other leg forward and back. You can move it much quicker and easier with your knee bent than with your leg straight.

Cadence is a function of the gravitional constant and your vertical displacement. It has almost nothing to do with how fast you're going, whether you're overstriding, or whatever, until faster than your mile race pace.

To avoid overthinking it, if you have low cadence, chances are you think of running as jumping lots of times. Stop jumping so much, and start moving your legs back and forth. Use your inertia to advantage - once you're at a given pace, all you need to do to maintain it is not fall over, and not let your footstrike create a braking force. The latter means it strikes the ground at relative rest to it - and moving backwards relative to you.