The official HEPS track and field thread, 2015-2016

I note that the Cornell man's time lowered the previous school record, which was an agonizing 4:00.00.

kibitzer wrote:

I note that the Cornell man's time lowered the previous school record, which was an agonizing 4:00.00.

Actually, it was 3:59.998, but you know the rounding rules.

Having some fun with updating the projected scores for Indoor Heps with everything through this past weekend. I don't expect things to change really with the limited upcoming weekend action but I will double check on Monday AM.

So, what kind of scores did we want to check? I plan to do as-stated on TFRRS and unconverted values from this past season for both genders. Did we want event group breakdowns? I remember someone suggesting removing marks from December that are still in scoring contention, but that will take more time to complete as I'd like to "replace" with best mark from Jan/Feb if possible from that athlete if they have run since.

bump

Ok, my updated projected scores for Indoor Heps as of 2/15. These scores do include the relays, multis, and long distance performances shown on TFRRS, and no assumptions have been made on doubles/triples/quads:

For the men, Cornell continues to hold a significant gap on the rest of the field if you tally up the top 6 for each event as shown on TFRRS (calling it the "converted" scores). This increased gap has made the battle for the mid-tier positions much tighter. As you can see in the scoring below, fourth through eighth has a 10.5 point scoring spread. In the parentheses next to the scores, I included the change in position and scores since 2/3.

Ranking - Converted Performances (as of 2/15)

Cornell 204 (NC/+12.337)

Princeton 118.5 (NC/-30.83)

Dartmouth 68 (+4/-17.333)

Harvard 49.5 (+1/+12.837)

Columbia 49 (-2/+2)

Penn 45 (-2/+17.5)

Brown 44 (-1/+3.5)

Yale 39 (NC/+18)

Also, someone suggested the last time I shared the scoring about if there any impacts to the scores if you remove the listed marks that are from December. I did some research, and it would seem like it would impact the field events the most as the next best marks would result in some major reshuffling of the scoring. Yes, you'd also knock out all but one of the heptathlon scores, but I'm keeping those in since there is not enough to fill in those voids and who does multiple hepts before a championships? Only two running marks would impact the scoring if you removed them as neither of these men have run this event since December (both of them are for Cornell). But there isn't much change in the scoring or rankings.

Ranking - Converted, removed December marks

Cornell 191

Princeton 119.5

Dartmouth 77

Harvard 51.5

Columbia 49

Penn 49

Brown 41

Yale 39

Now if you take into account the original performances (aka, "unconverted" marks), the gap between Cornell and Princeton is not nearly as large. Using the unconverted marks greatly impacts the results of the 200m and 500m, with moderate to minor impacts to the 1km and relays. Columbia is also impacted by using unconverted marks as many of their men got some of their season's bests on Dartmouth's track during the Col-Y-D tri-meet. It is not as tight of a battle between the mid-tier schools, but it will still be pretty close in the final scoring.

Ranking - Unconverted (as of 2/15)

Cornell 165

Princeton 139.5

Dartmouth 78

Harvard 56.5

Brown 51

Penn 46

Columbia 41

Yale 40

It should be noted that Princeton has yet to really race any of their long-distance corp. We know it is not uncommon for long-distance people to make their debuts at Indoor Heps (got to love the bunch of NTs on the entry sheets), so this gap between Cornell and Princeton is not going to be very big by the end of the meet.

No Awad in the long-distance events either at this point, and he's the defending Indoor Heps 3k champ. I expect Awad to make an attempt to defend the 3k title at Indoor Heps, but not sure if we will see him do the 5k double (I don't doubt his fitness to win them both, I'm not sure what his long-term plan is for the season as he will be racing the mile at Millrose this weekend).

I'll do the women later, but enough to start discussion.

Couple distancey things flying under the radar the past few weeks:

- Junior Mark Tedder of Cornell, who missed much of his first two years to injury, has opened up his indoor season with 8:13 in Barton (8:08c), 4:03, and 1:51. Between him, Rainero, and Gowans, Cornell could rack up a ton of points in the mid-distance events.

- Also at Staten Island, the Penn distance men quietly put 3 men in front of Cornell's Brian Eimstad in the 5k (14:18, 14:19, and 14:26). And that's not including Heps champs Tommy Awad and Nick Tuck.

- Harvard's Brandon Price PRed by 12 seconds to just miss sub-8 in the 3k at BU (8:00.07). That track is insanely fast but that's still a huge jump for Price.

Pretty sure the team championship on the men's side will still be a Cornell-Princeton showdown, but look for Penn and Brown to finish higher than 6th and 7th. Dolan and Springfield are two of the better head coaches in the country and have built two really strong programs from the bottom up.

hello all

I've posted before so if you have responded on other threads feel free to ignore this post.

Let's say a boy ran 9:41 for 3200 in high school off 30-40 miles per week. He's been accepted to Dartmouth and will attend in the fall.

I'll assume that he improves to say 9:15 with more mileage but not much more than that.

What does a guy in that range do on a Dartmouth XC and track team? Does he get to compete? Does he travel? Is he welcome or just tolerated?

I'm the dad, just trying to have some advice if he asks me.

adjudicator wrote:

hello all

I've posted before so if you have responded on other threads feel free to ignore this post.

Let's say a boy ran 9:41 for 3200 in high school off 30-40 miles per week. He's been accepted to Dartmouth and will attend in the fall.

I'll assume that he improves to say 9:15 with more mileage but not much more than that.

What does a guy in that range do on a Dartmouth XC and track team? Does he get to compete? Does he travel? Is he welcome or just tolerated?

I'm the dad, just trying to have some advice if he asks me.

Hey there.

Honestly, I think this is a question that either your son or you would have to ask the coach. I don't know what Dartmouth's walk on policies are, or if they have any. It definitely could not hurt to reach out to the coach and ask, as it would give the coach a heads up that your son would be interested in joining the team next fall. FYI - the Indoor Heps championships is next weekend, so if you did try to reach out to Coach Harwick, I'd recommend doing it this week.

Typically, Dartmouth has a large team contingent at their home meets. Also, they have split the team up for competitions that would allow their B groups and rookies additional opportunities to race in the XC and TF seasons.

C/M, thanks for your *outstanding* work. This stuff can take a ton of time (or it does when I try to do it, anyway).

I think your "unconverted" men's scores are the best current guide:

Ranking - Unconverted (as of 2/15)

Cornell 165

Princeton 139.5

Dartmouth 78

Harvard 56.5

Brown 51

Penn 46

Columbia 41

Yale 40

I've spent about a minute (literally) on the women's marks and already spotted a woman field-eventer who simply has no mark in any event since December--who knows, maybe she's left the school? I'm presuming people like that don't make it into your ranking, but probably I shouldn't presume.

Anyway, I second your remarks about distance runners and relays teams--some individuals' event (or even season!) debuts are at Heps; and quite a few schools don't put anything like their best relay squads together until they "have" to, when Ivy championships are on the line. Looks like the men's meet could once again go to the final events (and kudos to Dartmouth, showing that a "small" school can still be hella competitive).

Thanks in advance for your work on the women's projections, Mary. It is appreciated!

congratulations to tommy awad on his new ivy league record

Does anyone know when / where heat sheets will be posted for indoor heps next week?

heps week wrote:

congratulations to tommy awad on his new ivy league record

THE NEAR BEAST FROM THE NEAR EAST

THE PHENOM FROM LEBANON

AWAD? MORE LIKE A GOD

Nice run Tommy

Heat sheets won't be determined until Friday night after the coaches meeting. Lancer timing will have something up on their website around then.

I find it a little annoying that the Ivy League hasn't released the meet schedule yet and we have the meet in less than a week.

adjudicator wrote:

hello all

I've posted before so if you have responded on other threads feel free to ignore this post.

Let's say a boy ran 9:41 for 3200 in high school off 30-40 miles per week. He's been accepted to Dartmouth and will attend in the fall.

I'll assume that he improves to say 9:15 with more mileage but not much more than that.

What does a guy in that range do on a Dartmouth XC and track team? Does he get to compete? Does he travel? Is he welcome or just tolerated?

I'm the dad, just trying to have some advice if he asks me.

Depending on the depth of the recruiting class, he would likely get to walk on to XC and track. The team culture is pretty inclusive, if you're on the roster then you're one of the guys. Socially speaking, effort is valued over talent. With those kinds of times he would be middle-to-back of the pack but guys like that who are lucky enough to not get injured can and do make an impact on the team as they progress. The sub-varsity XC guys get to compete mostly at some meets around New England. If he doesn't improve by sophomore year or so he may get cut but at least when I was there a few years back those guys were still socially included - really not a very cutthroat environment.

I would encourage him to get in contact with Coach Harwick.

Ok, with the last round of competition from this past weekend, here is how the men's projected scores stand now:

Men's Ranking - converted, 2/22/16

Cornell 196

Princeton 130

Dartmouth 64

Penn 57

Harvard 48

Brown 45

Columbia 43

Yale 34

Men's Ranking - unconverted, 2/22/16 (no marks removed)

Cornell 162

Princeton 156

Dartmouth 74

Harvard 56

Penn 55

Brown 52

Columbia 39

Yale 35

Penn really got a boost with Awad's mile and having a few more names in consideration for the mid-distance points. Now, will Awad do the mile? Or will he attempt a repeat in the 3k? Who knows. I doubt Napolitano will do both the 1k and the mile (where he is the defending mile champ), but he's among the top of both. It will be very interesting to see the heat sheets on Friday night.

As for the women (about time, sorry for the delay but I've been busy with work and life).

The Harvard women still maintain a good cushion over Princeton in the team scorings (it's even a bigger cushion if you look at the unconverted scoring). The main difference between this scoring and the previous time is that Princeton has pulled away from Cornell to secure #2, while Penn has gained the most amount in net points from the previous scoring round. I think predicting the top 4 teams being Harvard-Princeton-Cornell-Dartmouth is a safe bet. We will have to see if Dartmouth can pull ahead of Cornell in the final scoring.

Women's Ranking - converted, 2/22/16

Harvard 163 (NC/+13 points)

Princeton 123 (+1/+15.667 points)

Cornell 92 (-1/-24.166 points)

Dartmouth 70 (NC/-16.5 points)

Penn 59 (+2/+21 points)

Brown 50 (-1/+8.5 points)

Yale 37 (-1/-4.5 points)

Columbia 25 (NC/-7 points)

Women's rankings - unconverted, no marks removed, 2/22/16

Harvard 166

Princeton 119

Cornell 88

Dartmouth 69

Penn 59

Brown 54

Yale 39

Columbia 25

Now I did see that one of Cornell's shot putters has not competed since December, so the 21 points Cornell is predicted to get may really come down to 20 points while Brown gets 1 point. I have not gone through that kind of detail for all of the events and I don't have the time to do so this week as I need to finish getting the previews together.

Princeton can still put in a big wallop in the distance events due to their distance/mid-distance depth that was on display at HepsXC, but the current scoring right now has Cecilia Barowski scoring in 4 events spanning the 400m to the 1km (and I doubt she will do all four - maybe two, like the 400m and 800m, and then a relay to bring it home). I could see Harvard's Gabrielle Thomas doing three of the four events that she's in the top 3 (60, 200, LJ, TJ) while possibly running a leg on a 4x4 relay. I would be really surprised if she attempts the Maduka quad as a freshman (60, 200, LJ, TJ, no relay) - I don't know if she would have the strength to pull that off right now. I think Princeton will put Elizabeth Bird in the distance events to challenge Dartmouth's Dana Giordano and Harvard's Courtney Smith (so essentially it is a rematch from HepsXC) in order to do some damage to Harvard's potential scoring while helping themselves out in the process.

thomas awad has not run a 3k this season. you cannot seriously expect him to try to run the 3k out of the slow heat.

It's been won out of the slow heat before...

you don't run often run in the slow heat if you're trying to win an event. it was won out of the slow heat because the fast heat didn't pay attention, not because tait rutherford -- no offense to him -- was the best guy in the field.

I heard a story of a Harvard runner in the 1980s who won the 3km out of the slow heat (was it Sheehan?) because he didn't have a seed time and just dominated it, and then the guys in the faster heat just looked at it other and realized it was going to be a battle for second place...

Anyone else ever heard of that story?

C/M Runner wrote:

I find it a little annoying that the Ivy League hasn't released the meet schedule yet and we have the meet in less than a week.

Mary, here's the (alleged) schedule:

In looking at it, seems to me that the best chance for maximizing points from Awad would be to go for the mile/5,000 double. The mile final is at noon on Sunday; then you'd have 2 1/2 hours to recover before the 5,000. In the latter race, most of the field (presumably) would be doubling back from the 3,000, so there'd be little incentive to push the pace; and if you don't drop Awad during the body of the race, you're not likely to outrun him at the end.

OTOH it's possible that Penn, without a realistic shot at a team win this year, may be very focused on TA's sequence of events leading to Nationals. Perhaps they would just have him go with a single race (but which?), or double the mile and DMR.