Long Run for Marathon Question

In my admittedly little marathon experience, I did my longest run (22.5 miles) 4 weeks out and a 15.5 mile training run on flat terrain at, what turned out to be, 15 seconds/mile faster than my marathon finish pace. I received that advice from several experienced marathoners. Two weeks out I ran a 5-mile race to sharpen. (Hadd could give the phsiological explanation) I found it worked well for me and would try it again.

As for being able to run 30 sec/mile faster than marathon pace over a hilly course - your marathon goal has to be too slow. I would start out at that pace anyway, however, and begin running faster in the latter stages of the race. This is especially sound advice, I believe, if you are not an experienced marathoner, are not trained extremely well, or are not looking to run an elite-like time.

30 seconds per mile faster than marathon pace.

This is my first marathon. I need to break 3:30 ( 7.59) for a BQ. Recent 20 mile training run at 8.23 pace. Recent hilly 10 mile race at 7 min pace. Recent five mile race at 6.30 pace. Did yasso 800s today. 10 @ 3.15 with 400 jog rec. Training 50 mpw.

I agree with you that maybe I'm being too conservative in estimating my marathon pace. Thanks for the Khannouchi comparison!

Okay. Let me re-phrase my earlier reply for those who don?t like to use the word ?impossible?. (So much for me trying to develop a one-liner style of reply). If you can run a 16-mile race at 30 secs per mile faster than your marathon pace, you are not well-trained (or you did not put in 100%) for the marathon. You should only be able to run around 12-15 secs per mile faster (I am not including 4-hr+ marathoners in this statement).

Hell, let?s turn it around. If you have to add 30 secs per mile onto your 16-mile PR pace per mile, you are not well prepared for a marathon.

Really, you should only have to slow up 30 secs per mile from your 10k PR pace. If you need to slow up more, you haven't got the preparation mix right. (If you are slowing up 30 secs from your 16-mile PR, you are probably slowing up 50 secs, or even one minute, per mile or so from your 10k PR). Of course you can always run the marathon knowing that, but the fact remains, you are not as well prepared as you could be.

Athena,

You want to be working towards a 7.15-7.20m/m marathon (maybe better) if you can run a hilly 15.5-miler at 7.00m/m. Really. If you cannot, your marathon preparation needs rethinking.

Kent,

I would be very interested to know of any internationally ranked athlete you have heard of (that ANYONE has heard of) that can run 16-miles at 30 secs per mile faster than his/her proven marathon PR.

MachoTime

Those 10-mile race and 5-mile race results are a bit iffy. Was the 10-miler so hilly that you had to slow up so much from the 5-mile pace? Slowing up by 30 secs/mile between 5-mile and 10-mile pace is a lot. 15-20 secs/mile would?ve been better. If you HAD TO slow up 30 secs/mile, (and it wasn?t just the hills) then things don?t look good for the marathon. Ditch the yasso 800s and try and increase the overall mileage. 50mpw is a bit low. Even getting up to 65mpw would be a big help. 8.30m/m pace is fine for most of the week, with two days a bit faster (like: Tues: 3 x 20 mins @ 7.35m/m and Fri 2 x 30 mins or 1 x 60 mins @ 7.50m/m).

Having said all that, if you can run 7.00m/m for 10 miles, you should not have too much trouble breaking 3.30 for this debut marathon (but I suggest you prepare better for the next one). Good luck.

Thank you for the advice.

Hadd, are you sure that this applies for everyone? I am a 46 year old guy who is fairly large for a marathoner: 6'1 and 175 pounds. I haven't run any 10k's lately, but I know I can still run under 29:00 for 5 miles and at least under 61:00 for 10 miles (maybe even under an hour). I'm even pretty sure that I could run 16 miles at a 6:15 clip. But I have run 10 marathons and my PR is 3:02. Even though I love marathons, I have found that there is something about going beyond that 18-20 mile mark that requires me to marshall my resources a lot more carefully.

What do you mean by the "right preparation mix?" Over the last two years, I have upped my annual mileage totals from 2,500 to 3,500 per year. Right now I am running about 75-80 mpw to get ready for another crack at the 3 hour barrier in Boston. But I seriously doubt that, no matter how many miles I ran, I could run a 2:49 marathon. Mightn't size have something to do with this? Should everyone who can maintain a 6 minute pace for 10k be able to maintain a 6:30 pace for a marathon? Or is it just a matter of being able to run the 130 miles per week that people like JK talk about?

size shouldn't be an issue-- i'm 6'2" and can run within 30 seconds of my 10km pace... but it would be hard to pull that off on only 75-80 mpw...

Hi TryonCreek,

Let's say my "add 30 secs minute to your 10k pace to get your marathon pace" target is too tight for everybody. (And it works with athletes I coach, even +27 secs/mile has been achieved).

Let's say 30-40 secs/mile added onto your 10k pace is valid for everyone under 3.15 marathon.

But you are saying you need to add 56 secs/mile (from a 6.00m/m 10k pace to a 3.02 marathon which equals 6.56m/m) and asking if this might be due to your large frame size.

It COULD BE, but it isn't. Because you state that you could still run 6.15 for 16 miles. Which is as good, or maybe even a hair better, than I would expect from someone who runs 6.00m/m for 10km. So there is little wrong with your training FOR THOSE DISTANCES.

BUT, as you don't need to be told, having run 10 of them, marathons are different. And they are MORE different for big guys (and gals). Because they have a unique problem all lesser distances do NOT have; the problem of fuel.

If you have to slow up 56 secs mile from 10k pace to marathon pace then in all your training, you have not trained your body to be fuel efficient. You have the physical ability to run (let's say) a 2.55 marathon, but you have not got the fuel mix right and are burning too high a percentage of carbohydrate. And, as you have learned, you cannot carry enough carbos on-board to get you past 22 miles.

So, you need to alter your "training mix" to improve your fat-burning ability. With the race being in April, you need to get in about 6 weeks of runs at M+40 secs and M+20 secs, and then about 4-5 weeks of runs at M+20 secs and M-pace.

Do one run at each pace per week, and include one long run per week. Aim for a marathon target (M) of 10k pace + 40 secs mile (just to be cautious).

A week at first might look like this:

Sun: Long run

Tue: build up to 75 mins at M+40 secs/mile

Fri: build up to 60 mins at M+20 secs/mile

At end Feb, a week might look like this:

Sun: Long run

Tue: Build up to 75 mins at M+20 secs mile

Fri: build up to 60 mins at M-pace

If you are a heart-rate dude, you are really wanting to get to a stage where the HR at these paces does not rise, but remains pretty stable (after the first 15 mins).

When I say build up, I mean you can start with 2 x 25 mins, and build up to 3 x 25 mins or 2 x 40 mins before reaching a single effort of 75 mins.

The rest of the week can be M+1.15-1.30 mins/mile (for a 6.40 marathoner, that would be 8.00-8.15m/m).

For the long runs, you might want to try running Sundays of: 1.45, 2hrs, 2.15, 2.30 (and repeat sequence).

You should manage your sub-3hr target on a max of 90mpw.

All of this is just calculated to improve your body's ability to burn fat for fuel. You are already "fast" enough to go sub-3hrs. But you are not fuel-efficient enough. Nail that, and you're there.

Good luck in Boston.

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to put together such an elaborate and thoughtful answer. I'll build the Tuesday and Friday runs into my schedule. I already did my first 2:30 run this past weekend. I have one question: do I need to run all of my runs other than on Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays that slowly? What I generally do is run to and from work two or three days a week. On those days, I generally run at about a 7:45 to 8:00 pace in the mornings, but usually significantly faster on the way home. For example, for this week, my running for the last 7 days has looked like this:

Saturday - 21 miles in 2:34:54

Sunday - 8 miles in 57:12

Monday - 7.3 miles to work in 58:19; 7.3 miles home in 54:10

Tuesday - 8 miles in 54:44

Wednesday - 7.3 miles to work in 56:46; 7.3 miles home in 49:52

Thursday - 8 miles in 55:30

Friday - 7.3 miles to work in 55:58 (and I'll run 7.3 miles home tonight, I would guess in around 52 minutes).

My "running weeks" actually end on Sundays, and I'll probably run 8 tomorrow and around 14 on Sunday, which would give me a little under 82 miles for this week.

Are these other days slow enough? FYI, I have found that I almost never need to take days off. I only took 12 days off all of last year, and most of them were clustered around the two marathons that I ran.

Thanks again for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

The reason why you are not fuel efficient is right there in your training week. You train wayyy too fast every day. Not an uncommon fault.

At these paces (for you) lactate will be a little bit too high forcing carbo burning in preference to fat. Hence you never have maximised your ability to burn a high percentage of fat at marathon pace. And you do not realise/expose this training "flaw" until you enter a marathon.

Look at your paces: viz a vis a 3.02 marathon (6.56 pace)

Sat: 21 miles @ M+26

Sun: 8 m @ M+13

Mon: 7.3m @ M+1.04 ? 7.3m @ M+29

Tue: 8 m @ M-6

Wed: 7.3m @ M+9 ? 7.3m @ M-7

Thu: 8m @ M-pace

Fri: 7.3m @ M+44 ? 7.3m @ M+11

Substitute KK's 4.47m/m marathon pace and see if you think he would run the equivalent paces as you do.

To improve fuel efficiency, you really have to slow down to paces at which your body can "learn" to burn fat, and then ease that pace up.

You are also breaking the mileage down too much into 7-8 mile runs. Try and make one other day per week into 90 mins continuous or so.

I really would recommend the following. Target 2.55 (M-pace = 6.40m/m):

Sun: Long (as earlier post @ M+75 secs)

Tue: 75 mins @ M+40 as earlier post

Thu: 90 mins continuous easy run @ M+75 secs

Fri: 60 mins @ M+20 as earlier post.

All other runs at NO FASTER than M+60-75 secs (preferably the slower pace). If it feels like you are doing nothing on such runs, go longer, but never faster.

If you get this right, I believe you may in time have cause to review your doubt that you could ever run 2.49.

Once again, thanks so much for the advice. I'll try my best to slow down and give your plan a shot. I have to admit, it all seems a little counter-intuitive to me (that I need to slow down in order to get more out of my training), but what the heck, my way hasn't been working, so I might as well try something different. Running the one longer run during the week will be easy. In fact, I often do that already. It's the slowing down part that's going to be hard. But thanks. It really is extraordinary that you would take the time to give me this much feedback. I'll keep you posted.

wow good posting. how would one go about predicting how fast one could run a marathon? i'm running las vegas in a few weeks...my previous best marathon is a 3.05...

that was 2 years ago...since then...i've run a long run of

3 hours at least twice a month...run faster 5ks...17.50 ish

and i've the two 1/2 marathons i've run have both been in the 1.24 range... when i ran the 3.05 marathon i had run a 1/2 in 1.26 and many 5ks in the 18.30 range. my typical training week usually looks like this:

sunday long run : 2 to 4 hours all on trails...

monday: 5-8 miles (road: 6.50 pace to 7:30 pace)

tuesday: 8-10 mile tempo runs (6.30 pace)

wed: 12 miles (trails)

thursday: 5 mile run (trails and road)

friday: day off

saturday: race or 8-12 mile easy run

any idea what i might be able to run?

Good luck, TryonCreek.

tempe,

Two rules of thumb I use (for athletes I coach) are:

1. marathon pace = M-pace = 10k pace per mile plus 30-40 secs per mile (e.g. 7.00m/m/10k pace = 7.30-7.40m/m M-pace)

2. M-pace = HM-pace + 3-4-5 mins (depending on HM time, so in your case 5 mins) and double it. So a 1.24 HM becomes a potential 2.58 marathon.

Let me be very clear: these simple equations are only possible, not a given.

These numbers rely on you training properly for the longer distance. Note that I said TryonCreek was training too fast / too often. To manage those numbers you must train to be able to burn a high percentage of fat, and "tempo" runs at M-17 secs (as you do) are not the secret here. The runs at below (slower than) marathon pace are the real key.

Re-read my advice to TryonCreek and apply the numbers to your own training and see if you too are training just that little bit too fast. If you are, I suggest you consider adjusting your training accordingly (although it may be a little too late to have much effect in Las Vegas).

Good luck in either case.

Hey Hadd, thanks for your advice earlier on that other thread. It has taken me a while but I feel better in some of my runs after having to start so slow.

Question: This is in relation to this guy you say is running "too fast". At one time without really training for marathons was able to run 2:42, 2:43 & 2:46 all off of less then perfect training. Like 8 months of 34mi/wk aver leading up to my 2:42. Most of my reg. runs were in the 5:30-6:59 pace, so I was training most of the time at MP, other runs were on the track. I also did runs of 2 x 20 milers at 2:04 & 2:10 leading up my 1/2M PR of 71:07 never doing more then 76/week & averaging about 60/wk during the 13 weeks before hand, all fast distance runs & stuff like 10 x 800. I have also aver, 32/wk for the 71 weeks leading up to my 10K PR of 31:47. Long story short, are you saying I was training too fast? I never felt good about jogging around, felt like I was as you say doing nothing. I always felt that if my body could have held together I could have run sub 2:30 on way less volume then most people, maybe 60+/week. I guess now we will never know? Thanks in advance.

Hi Lame Runner,

Good to hear it is coming together for you. Keep it up.

Lots of ways to answer your question, pity we cannot sit down and bat it back and forth. Up front, we can say that your HM PR of 71.07 SHOULD have resulted in faster marathons than 2.42-2.46. Using the rule of thumb of "add 4 mins and double it", your belief that you could break 2.30 DOES make sense, but I would argue that you did not have the (slow) mileage to handle the distance at that pace and in the race had to slow up to a pace that you could supply enough energy for; 2.42.

Think of it this way (I might have mentioned this on another thread); if we got a tiny Fiat Seicento and a Ferrari side by side, the Ferrari would win hands down in a speed event. But if we asked them to go as far as possible on a single gallon of petrol, the Ferrari would lose every time. In the case of the younger you, you were the Ferrari (with a 71.07 PR) who was getting beaten in the marathon by people with slower HM PR's, but better economy over 26.2 miles.

So, yes, to achieve you best marathon, you were training too fast. So fast that you were not maximising your fat burning ability at what SHOULD HAVE BEEN marathon race pace (HM pace + approx 15 secs/mile). Because of your normal training paces, you were still burning too high a percentage of carbohydrate (CHO) at that pace, and there was no way you could carry enough CHO to keep that pace up for 26 miles. So, on race day, you were forced to run slower, at a pace that permitted a mix of CHO and fat that would get you to the finish line before the CHO ran out, or if you started at HM+15 secs pace, you slowed after 18-20 miles, much like TryonCreek above.

Where many people find it hard to believe is that they, like you, can run 18-20 milers at close to HM+15 and believe that on race day they will find the extra from tapering/resting/excitement. Doesn't happen. On race day the tank goes dry earlier (since race pace is slightly faster: 20 miles at 2.04 is 6.00+, but a marathon in 2.30 is 5.40±).

In short: for your best marathon you need the optimal mix of X% CHO and Y%fat. Due to your relatively fast paces in day to day training, you required X++% CHO and Y--% fat, and there was no way you could store that amount of CHO on race day (even with optimal carbo loading), so you could not achieve the marathon time you were capable of. This "problem" did not really arise/show itself at distances of HM and less (neither does TryonCreek's). At those, you (and he) could race well since energy was/is not really a limiting factor.

Hi Hadd,

I hate to exploit your generosity, but I'm wondering (briefly) how/if you'd alter your prescription for TryonCreek for a 30-year old female who has run a 2:40 marathon (a few years back). I'm just returning to seriuos running (am up to 75-80 per week en route to 100 pw and hope to hit the low 2:40s or better by April/May) but don't want to follow the old routine; I'm convinced that I didn't run to potential in the past as I was running too fast most of the time. Thanks for any input!

Hadd great post thanks! So what would be the best or fastest AEROBIC pace one who was maybe capable of running 2:29-2:30 during their day to day training runs? Is 6 minute miles too fast? Funny how alot of runners get pulled or lulled into thinking that faster is better. I think at the time it was just youth fueled by testosterone & believing all the best guys were cranking right along everyday so why not me. When I was running well I never thought any pace was too fast until it hurt a bit, then who cared because a race was going to hurt more. Then a PF injury brings you back to the real world. It was nothing to knock out 10 mile runs in 60-63 minutes all of the time & 15 milers in the 90-96 minute range. During those 20 milers I told you about I would start slow & build to 5:40's over the last few miles, felt like I was walking! That's why with a HRMonitor I feel like a 99 year crippled old man running so slowly. I don't know if the injuries I suffered were the result of how hard I trained day to day or just age, kinda peaked at 27 when the worst hit. Other then a coach watching or using a HRM how would I have known what was too fast back in the day? Final note, I remember training with my buddy who ran 30:28 for 10K & 14:20 for 5K, he always told me "slow down your killing me". Hadd where were you when I needed you? Thanks again for any reply, Lame & slow.

Thank you Hadd for all your helpful information. What is the longest run you suggest before a marathon? This is for a 3:10- 3:30 person. Thanks

Hi Sara,

You must have some serious talent to have run 2.40 (especially considering that you don't believe you "fulfilled potential"). And 30-years old is plenty young to train to run still faster. Good to see you getting back into it.

I will be glad to offer you some advice that should see you run some PRs (assuming you can/have run approx16.15/5k and approx 34.15 for 10k). If your PRs are faster, all the better for you and the potential to run a much faster marathon). Indeed, I notice women respond very well to my marathon coaching (has to do with better fat-burning ability, I suspect). First, please do me a favour and go and read this long (earlier) thread. It will give you a good general idea of how I coach and maybe answer some of your questions up front.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=42240&page=0

Then, if you are still interested, write to me at

hadd100@yahoo.it

and tell me a little bit about your PRs and training history and I will give you the advice you require. Don't worry, there's no charge. It's just that I really like to make sure that my advice is well understood. If you read the other thread, you will see that this often results in my writing long posts. If I replied to you now, I might spend the first 1,000 words telling you what you already know (and bore everyone else, me included). See ya.

Lame runner,

Quite honestly, any pace slower than marathon pace is aerobic. But that does not make it easy. For a 2.30 marathoner, any pace faster than M+40 secs/mile is a pace you do not jump into every day. So, assuming he/she is well-trained and race pace of 5.40m/m, let's say anything faster than 6.20m/m is "work". Not too much work, but still work. From M+20 secs and faster, it's serious.

"Hadd where were you when I needed you?" Hell, I was here... where were you? (smile)

Come to think of it, I am STILL here. You cannot be that old (late 30s, early 40s?) Drop me a line at

hadd100@yahoo.it

and we'll have a chat and see if I can help you do something about those unresolved ambitions. Ability doesn't go away, just desire.

MachoTime,

I tend to get runners (planning a marathon) to do the following long Sunday runs:

week 1, 1hr 45mins; wk 2, 2hrs; wk 3, 2hrs 15mins; wk 4, 2hrs 30mins; wk 5, go back to wk 1 and repeat.

I also like them to run another run of 90 mins mid-week (usually Thurs, as explained to TryonCreek, above). Pace equals M+75secs, even M+90secs. Definitely not faster than M+60 secs, and even then you better be well-trained or you risk being "under par" for most of the following week.

lame & slow:

i've run 2:29 and i NEVER go faster than 7:00 on my easy days (M + 75)-- hadd is right, the 'thon is about fuel efficiency... maybe you should change your name to lame and FAST...