Coaching coached kids?

Flagpole wrote:

3) One of the problems with not being loyal to a coach is that ultimately he might not be loyal to you. Not necessarily in a vindictive way, but there are HS coaches who can help you with being recruited, especially when a coach calls and asks about things like coach-ability, what kind of program he followed in the summer, etc. A talk with an enthusiastic coach is very different from one who just gives basic answers. I know a kid who will be running at a decent D1 school in the fall, and his coach definitely helped him get signed when for some weird reason, this kid (decent times) wasn't getting any interest.

That isn't a lack of loyalty, that is telling the truth. If I were a college coach, I would want to know if an athlete I'm looking at will do my workouts or go to an outside coach. If they're not going to buy into and stick with my program exclusively, I wouldn't want them. College coach's jobs are on the line.

As a high school coach, I don't have this problem. I am free to think about what is best for each athlete and the other athletes on my team, not just in terms of their running, but the other values I expect them to learn from their time on my team.

If they work in the off season with a coach that seems positive, I don't mind much. If they work with somebody I have issues with (for example in my area some kids from other schools work with Remi Korchemny), I will talk to them and explain that I can't tell them what they do outside of my practices, but that working with a coach with a lifetime ban seems inappropriate in my opinion. If they continue to work with him, I would remove the athlete from my team. If the school wanted to fire me for that, such is life, but I wouldn't feel right letting that person stay on the team, since that would suggest to the other kids on the team that working with a convicted criminal with a lifetime ban in our sport is acceptable. I feel these lessons will carry with them into their non-athletic lives.

If you don't want to provide off season training to your athletes, accept that some or many will enlist outside training. If you do want to provide off season training, I think it is important to look at what motivates some kids (and their parents) to pay an outside coach.These motivations are:

1) Availability during the off season: If you only are available 3 days a week, they will find somebody to help them those other days. If you are trying to run an off season program while only meeting with them a few days a week, at least give them specific workouts to do on the other days and be clear on why any weekly or every other week days off are important in your training.

2) Flashing marketing: Many of these coaches have websites extolling their virtues as coaches and with examples of the fastest athletes they have or are currently coaching. You can always explain at your parent meeting and to the athletes that these outside coaches are only giving their "best" examples. They are only giving the example of kids with the most talent, and only those they didn't injure or burn out. Also, many of those kids are not-coincidentally on the best high school teams in the area, the outside coach might have not helped that kid at all. Many times they are also advertising a success story of a kid they only worked with on a very limited basis and then take credit for their success.

3) Flashy exercises and workouts: It seems silly to integrate BOSU balls or rope ladders into your cross country training, but understand that some of the kids and their parents, lacking knowledge of our sport and training, are impressed by these activities. Don't be adverse to trying out some of these techniques as a supplement to your training, even if it is just to keep your athletes enjoying practice, since they get to do something "fun" once a week or every other week. There might not be shortcuts that make up for simple hard work, but keep in mind that a lot of running does get monotonous for the average 16 year old.

4) They charge, and you don't: I know it sounds silly that parents would seek out somebody who charges over somebody who doesn't, but the reality is that in today's world filled with 2 income households with parents who work (on average, statistically) more hours than in previous decades, you will have parents whose main contribution to raising their children is unfortunately money. Sometimes these parents take the attitude that "you get what you pay for." In their minds, a coach who charges money must be better than one who doesn't. If you are inclined and have the time, you can organize a "summer" camp for a week or two that you charge for in the middle of summer, or take them to "cross country camp" for 4 days. Combine forces with other high school coaches for events like this to make them more fun and exciting for the kids. It will keep the parents/athletes more engaged as well as providing lessons on sportsmanship, etc as they make friends with some of the competition.

These are just some of my thoughts and ideas.

Not saying the HS coach would be in the wrong here, brother, and even though deserved, there is a level of loyalty that is lost. You can tell the truth about an athlete that you either like or don't like, and if you like the kid, the truth might be just that bit more enhanced. I agree with you that the college coach will want that info. Behooves a high school kid to have a good relationship with his high school coach, and getting outside coaching doesn't really fit into that.

Slippery slope. No winner. You will be considered a jerk by the coach, other coaches and eventually the kid and their parents. I've been asked several times and got dirty looks from coaches even though I turned the kids away.

Don't do it.

I personally feel the private coach should always defer to the "school" coach

I'm a private coach and have been one for the last 7 years. I limit the number of high school kids I coach to 6. No real reason, it's just a number that I feel I can manage properly. Personally I hold myself accountable to do the following.

I reach out personally to the high school coach to let them know a student athlete has inquired about me coaching them during the season.

I tell the parents, the athlete, and the coach that if I do start coaching the athlete the high school coach's workouts, meet schedule and race choices trump all.

I NEVER talk poorly, about the coach and/or his/her coaching style/philosophy.

There are actually 4 local high school coaches whose athletes I decline or will decline services to if asked. These coaches are some of the best in the area and I tell the parents and the athlete that they are in good hands.

I don't recruit or cherry pick.

I tell my athletes that I am never to be mentioned in any interview with the media as their coach. This way there are never an hurt feelings or bruised egos.

I refuse to raise my fee to what any of the other local private coaches charge, even though I have been chastized several times by more than one private coach for keeping my fees "low".

I've been very lucky that I've only had one coach have any issues with my involvement. However that coach now is one of my biggest advocates and sends her athletes to my summer camp every year. One local high school coach has me coach his daughter.

As for workouts and making sure the athlete is not doing too much I always ask what they did for a workout the day before, that day etc. Again, I've been lucky to have the coach being willing to work together on this. I've even gotten emails from a high school coach asking what workouts I recommend for the athlete on the days he wasn't with me.

The high school coach should always be made aware of what work I'm having the kids do.

It is not complicated. Let them fail and consequently learn. Stop being a helicopter coach.

Question to anyone posting on this thread, especially the frighteningly possessive high school coaches.

How many of your athletes have gone on to compete at NCAA Nationals and USATF Nationals?

All good.points Bay Area. Again, my summer program is voluntary as everyone's should be. I offer 5 days because I know all kids can't or want to make it to all. My ego doesn't control me. I always tell the kids at our spring meeting that if they feel they have to come to run with others and be coached by me daily, they don't really want to run that badly. Again, I support independent runs and when going on vacation, camps, church missions etc... They can take their shoes and shorts with them and explore new places if they are t getting enough exercise. All they have to do is make time. If they don't, guys OK too. I know who I serve and its all.of our runners from the best to the beginners. Im lucky enough to have a couple assistants who also volunteer their time in the summer but nobody including myself can come to all practices. It's summer for crying out loud. Also, my guys do start well in September but everyone knows the training points to the last 3 races in October. It is so awesome to see the whole team hitting big PR's or PR efforts depending on weather and course conditions. We do have a long record of peaking when it counts.

As far as alternative, fun workouts go; we've done everything from team bike rides, capture the flag, ultimate Frisbee, agua jogging, T-shirt game workouts where kids can win 20-30 year old t-shirts that I picked up in road races back in the day etc..... Fridays always = popsicles.

As I said before, the bottom line is the kids have to own their efforts with your creative guidance but you can only control so much. Once you are OK with that it gets easier. I will always pry into an aggravating pain or injury that prevents consistency and it usually comes down to multiple activities without enough recovery. Talk to kids with adult reason and listen to their perspective and you will get further in helping them understand common sense.

In our state we are seeing more private coaches cherry picking the best kids and they give the parents the used car salesmanship like some of you mentioned. Not much you can do about that until the first official day of your team practice and then you need to lay down the law and get your AD to back you up with pushy parents. Worse case scenario here is when AD doesn't look out for what's best for the program but then you have to decide where you are with your philosophy and give him/her the ultimatum. It worked for this coach but he lost the athlete and she ended her eligibility for CC because she wanted to run against college competition in the fall. The track coach doesn't have the balls the cc coach has so she just shows up on game day and won run on any relays. That just sets a precedent against what the public school system is in place for regardless if everyone agrees with it or not. If all you have to hang your hat on is a USATF Level 2 certification I would challenge you any day to a battle of child psychology with kids who have multiple skills/talents/interests. Cherry pickers are definitely in it for their own personal glory but from my observations they never really move on to something more meaningful at a higher level or in their personal lives. If they run clubs, they definitely need the money of all the underlings to get them and their kids they've coached for only a few weeks after the hs programs have gotten them ready to their regional and national meets. They aren't kidding anyone. Winter training is similar and becoming more popular. Again, as someone mentioned, if parents have the money and they believe they can buy success, they will. Funny thing is, I have more under privileged kids that are hungrier for attention and success in a relatively poor man's sport that they typically are better when it counts. So what if you have a wealth pare t that wants that for their kid. It's just part of the deal. It's up to you to manage it to get what you want.

Scared Straight wrote:

Question to anyone posting on this thread, especially the frighteningly possessive high school coaches.

How many of your athletes have gone on to compete at NCAA Nationals and USATF Nationals?

Had one young man compete in this weekend's Jr Nationals (albeit under his college coach)

One young man compete at NCAA XC Nationals

One Young Lady Compete at NCAA II XC Nationals

Me: College degree in Bio, masters in exercise physiology. 15 year coach, have taken individuals to NXN and FL. Never a team (I'm in CA and damn it's tough here).

I have coached kids who went on to run in college, earn all-America and go on to run pro. I have coached many more who never ran in college but just really loved running and went on to run local races and be a fan of the sport.

Despite our teams success kids are poached by private coaches. As soon as kids get good all of a sudden other coaches start talking to them and telling them what "they should be doing."

(Yes, they should be doing 50-60 mpw but they don't know the kid breaks down past 35 because they get 5 hrs of sleep every night and are stressed from 5 AP classes).

I'm glad there's at least one decent private coach out there (posted above). He gets it.

I have yet to run into one here in CA.

One of our top girls runs for a club here. They're doing intervals and long runs of 4 miles. Essentially when the first day rolls around I shut her down for a week and build up a few weeks of no workouts. I think of it like an indoor season. She still gets stale the last few weeks but you just have to work with what you got.

You need to loosen the reins, Rodeo Clown. You have no control over these kids outside of practice. Most areas don't allow team practices this time of year. He's training and he'll be fit when the season starts. Then you can work your magic.

The majority of elite athletes are coached privately.

There is no reason to "dam" (in the literal sense) a successful runner with your coaching.

If an athlete wants to be coached by a private coach, in season or out of season, that's fine with me. If the athlete has a successful season, great, I'm happy for the athlete and they add to the success of the team. If the athlete has a bad season, chances are I'll be coaching them next year, and that's great too as the athlete learned what doesn't work and wants to be coached by me.

Way too many HS coaches feel threatened by private coaches. In the end, it's not your ego, but the athletes confidence and success that matters. If you don't get that (and a lot don't get that), then you shouldn't be coaching.

***I think some HS coaches are insecure and actually want to see athletes that are not exclusively coached by them fail--- that's a really sad state of affairs when the coaches ego has reached that level.*** Another manifestation of this is a coach that is worried about the success of a privately coached runner compared to runners coached by him/her. Either way, that person shouldn't be coaching.

When it becomes more about you and you getting the credit for creating something you didn't, or you being threatened because an athlete is succeeding -- then you need to move on.

What a load.

A real coach has a plan for each runner that he's responsible for coaching and works that plan out with each athlete who wishes to do so.

Some of those coaches are teacher-coaches who make pennies per hour for the job, while others are private coaches who are generally well-compensated for their work.

Any day of the week I'd take a teacher-coach whose mission involves helping kids over a private coach who makes his living coaching.

All generalizations. There's good teacher-coaches and horrible teacher-coaches. Same with private coaches.

I know there are teacher-coaches who have never heard of Lydiard, I'm serious about that.

The only thing that matters is the student-athlete. Unless everyone recognizes this and sets egos aside there will be contention.

When it comes down to it, an athlete that is having success under a certain coach should not switch without the athlete choosing to do so. Otherwise the "coaching" will always be questionable and an excuse. Every bad race will be because of the coach, Every injury will be because of the coach, and they may be right.

Like grandpa used to say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Just support the private-coached athlete and encourage them and thank them for running on the team, include them as much as they would like to be included. Be a positive influence in their life even if you aren't their "head coach". You will find that in many cases, if you are a coach that encourages and builds confidence, the student-athlete will decide he/she wants to be coached by you once she gets to know you and sees the success your other athletes are having.

Talking about XC...

Our policy with private coaches:

We have a great coaching staff. Better than you can find privately I promise. Still, any time we do not have a required in-season practice I can't stop you. I don't recommend it, butbwhat can you do? If they want to continue to work with the club team in the season that is fine. Do it full time and run for their club, but you are not running for the school's team. Cross Country is a team sport. Bottom line. If you don't show to practice you ride the bench. Hard to be part of a team when you're never there.

Liability...

To work in public schools you need to clear a background check. Private coaches do not. I know one who has been fired for such accusations and is now a private coach. If a HS coach is liable for athletes under their care are we then held responsible for practices during our practice time but held by a private coach at a different site?

It's a complicate world people.

Take a look at the qualifiers I used:

"A real coach"--as opposed to the many posers out there, both teacher-coaches and private coaches.

"Some"--some "real coaches" are teacher-coaches.

"Some"--some "real coaches" are private coaches.

"The teacher-coaches whose mission is helping kids"--that is, a "real coach" who happens to be a teacher.

I'd take that one over the private coach every time because of the different nature of the mission, which does not involve selling a service to a consumer.

Now, how many of those are there? In my experience, not that many, and the ones there are tend to continually produce great teams and individuals.

In my area, the private coaches who can do that tend not to be distance coaches but instead are the throws and jumps coaches. I've not seen many distance coaches who knew as much or put in as much time as a good teacher-coach.

It's not really that complicated, a runner that is already having success will not join your team or go to your high school if that is your policy. They don't want the drama of dealing with you and having to go jog through "team workouts" prior to their real workouts.The successful athlete will simply go to a different school and kick your az. Competent coaches are not, in the least, threatened by private coaches coaching athletes on the team. Why don't some coaches realize this????Seriously, I've never heard of the math teacher who has a math whiz walk into her class saying "NO, Johnny is not being privately tutored in math, I'm the math teacher in 10th grade, he is in my class, he will do the same exercises the rest of the class is doing and he will do it my way!" And then try to undermine his progress and private math tutoring.

The Donger wrote:

Talking about XC...

It's a complicate world people.

What don't you get about being a part of a team? Who hurt you?

The thrill of victory is so much more being a part of something. There is nothing a private coach can offer our program does not. being a member of a team is being a part of a community.

What don't you get about that?

And that math whiz... Probably not in her class.

What don't you get about being a part of a team? Who hurt you?

The thrill of victory is so much more being a part of something. There is nothing a private coach can offer our program does not. being a member of a team is being a part of a community.

What don't you get about that?

And that math whiz... Probably not in her class.

Baloney wrote:

Take a look at the qualifiers I used:

"A real coach"--as opposed to the many posers out there, both teacher-coaches and private coaches.

"Some"--some "real coaches" are teacher-coaches.

"Some"--some "real coaches" are private coaches.

"The teacher-coaches whose mission is helping kids"--that is, a "real coach" who happens to be a teacher.

I'd take that one over the private coach every time because of the different nature of the mission, which does not involve selling a service to a consumer.

OK. I got it and you are right. The best coach is a real coach. Given a real professional coach and a real teacher coach, you'd take the volunteer. I actually agree with this 100%.

I find the best coaches are the one's that are "real" and donate their time to coach the student-athletes. Often times they aren't teachers at the school, they are simply and only there to help kids succeed.

Now, with that being said, there are a whole lot of coaches I've seen over the years that think they are a real coach, and aren't. Most of these "ran" D2 somewhere and are out to build a resume. They've taken an exercise physiology class in college while working on their education degree and now somehow know how to train distance runners. That doesn't work.

Here is the test: Real coaches don't feel, in the least bit, threatened by private coaches. They are confident and secure in their coaching ability, but want the best for every athlete. Whatever the athlete wants to try, they will support them and encourage them.