Ron Daws trained in 4-5 oz flats?

no, they prevent it.

No normal human being over-pronates, despire what you read from show companies. Excepting rare defect or permanent injury, no one's foot is improperly built for their leg. If you take someone who pronates a lot and have them do a half swuate with legs shoulders' width apart, I bet their knees will fall right over their first two toes -- exactly where they should be. The foot is pronating to the degree tha is appropriate for the person in question. Because of how their foot meets their leg, if you prevented that rotation, their knees would end up riding to the outside.

the problem becomes shoes. If you take our noticable pronator, who operates just fine without shoes, and put him in a Pegasus or other big softie, he'll run into serious problems. His foot does its normal rotation, and it compressed the inside of all this soft stuff. But the outside of the shoe stays uncompressed, so the shoe tips the foot to the inside which tips the leg to the inside and now you have overpronation, that is more pronation than his foot would naturally provide for.

So your choices become three:

a.) prevent the foot's natural mechanics with orthodics or other such stiff devices

b.) put denser material into the inside of the shoe so that it compresses less so that the shoe remains level and doesn't tip or

c.) cut the shoe thinnner so that there is less material to compress, and a lower cetner of gravity. This way, it's not much different than if they were on the ground -- while the first two options attempt to correct the unnatural motion caused by the shoes, the third removes any possibility of unnatural motion taking place = nothing to correct. The foot's just doing what it's intended to do.

just finished 92 minutes in the t3, lower calves were a little sore immediately after finishing, but i feel great now...those shoes don't make you any more sucsceptible to injury than a bulky trainer that's for sure...i'm slowly becoming a believer in running long runs in flats...

brooks t3 racer:

remember to take the transition slow. you'll get there but your body needs a little time to adjust. err on the side of caution & make yourself out a plan, say to be running in flats all the time in 6 months. best of luck!

jb

The SL 72s and 76s were beyond my price range when they were originally made so I don't know how the ones on the market compare. There's a comment on some other thread from Waz where he says the Asics retros are different than the originals but the SL72s and 76s are about the same.

I got a pair of SL76s a few weeks ago and they're heavy as all get out. I thought that I'd just use them for walking around in, but I ran in them yesterday for about 85 minutes and they felt fine. On the other hand, I've a couple pair of Rats Racers that I bought on sale and I cannot run in them at all. For me, heel height, or lack thereof seems to be the key.

collective subconscious wrote:

I've got to find the page number from the Lore of Running, but there is a picture of Wally Hayward running his 24 hour world record (something like 170 miles) somewhere in the training section.....take a look at his shoes; they're leather slippers.

Page 324 in the 3rd Edition. It almost looks like he's barefoot! The guy behind him has like thin, leather boots!

Wally Hayward p. 324 3rd edition of The Lore of Running. He is wearing the most minimal of shoes and he is obviously not a small guy.

How much did those SL knockoffs weigh?

Spent a week with him at the Pike's Peak High Altitude Training Camp in 1979.

He told me exactly what you said. In fact, I saw several pair of the Penny's/KMart shoes that he had with him.

I can't verify the weight however, felt light as a pair socks.

orthotics...not orthodics

I know I run the risk of looking like an idiot because I don't have time to read all of the posts, but does anyone know where I can pick this book up? If this info has already been provided I apologize. Thanks.

It's not in print these days.

Try Amazon for a second hand copy

Talk about sore hooves wrote:

However wouldn't frostbite be an issue for runners in that region; running in trimmed, superlight flats in consistently brutal sub zero temps?

I'll admit my guesstimate is that you'd need 2 pairs of sock at least, and how would THAT feel in 5oz flats?

Never tried it. The coldest I have EVER run in was -4 F and I was bundled up like the guys in the movie "Ice Station Zebra" just to tell one of my co-runners that I

actually did it.

Don't quite live in snow-covered Minnesota, but it got down to around 5 degrees and snowed a couple of times this past winter in Okla.. I was concerned how my feet would hold up in the Puma H Streets with no socks, but actually my feet used to feel colder when I wore Pegasus with thick socks. My feet felt perfectly fine with next to nothing on them! I even did a bit of barefoot running on wet grass when it was around 25-30 degrees, but again my feet felt fine. It seems my feet remain drier without socks (under any conditions), which seems to be the key. I read on the barefoot running website about a guy up in Kansas City ("Barefoot Ken") who made the transition to barefoot running during the winter. He kept a journal of his transition, and talked about running barefoot through snow. It's quite amazing how tolerable the body is and adapts to stress.

Look, I am going to make a GENERAL comment to everyone on this thread:

trackhead, et al, you make very good cases for the "less is more" argument on running shoes, and I agree with your OVERALL sentiments. But please, for the sake of your arguments, and for the sake of trying to convince people (if that is your goal, after all you do seem to want to help people stay healthy and run faster), don't imply that if bulky trainers had never been introduced, and every runner in the world had stayed either barefoot or in minimalist flats, that virtually NO ONE on the planet would have been injured. That's just plain silly, and you've just about implied that at times.

Yes, running is a natural activity, and yes big bulky shoes can often do more harm than good, BUT......no matter how natarual running is, and no matter how naturally one does it, running lots of miles, and running fast, is a strenuous activity on the body, PERIOD. And all people are not created equally, and MANY can not do it (run lots of miles and run fast, EVEN with patient build-ups) without suffering some injuries. Look, even WILD HORSES get leg injuries when they run too far or too fast, or over rough terrain in the wild (I've seen documentaries on it , where they have diagnosed their injuries).

Running may be natural, but people (or other animals) are not indestructable. You just do a disservice to your argument by suggesting that bulky running shoes are virtually the SOLE (no pun intended) reason for running injuries, and that NO ONE ever suffered Plantar Fasciatis, or other injuries until these shoes were introduced. AGAIN......I agree with your overall sentiments, and certainly the bulky trainers could be blamed for an INCREASE in such injuries, but just don't get too carried away with the hyperbole. You only hurt your case when you do.

Sir Lance,

I've always maintained that not everyone (obviously) will go down wearing standard shoes, but there are many that will. And that there are over 6,000,000,000 humans on the planet and not all will be built to design. But hopefully most.

I run through the winters of Northern Minnesota. Daws trained 150 miles south of where I live. I train in spikeless xc shoes without socks on all days until the temp. hits 15 degrees F. At that point I put on one pair of light socks. This winter I ran 16 miles in minus 26 degrees (excluding wind chill) with no ill effects on my feet with one thin sock. As long as you start with your feet warm, you're fine.

With some very breathable shoes, it is necessary to put a little duct tape over the forefoot ventillation. When the winchill is minus 60, this is a good idea (but it depends on the shoe).

Nasty over-pronation from Lel, the London Marathon Champion and former Half Marathon World Champion...

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/gallery/2005lisbon_hm/LisbonHalf05_171

Talk about sore hooves wrote:

Thanks, yes, what I read seemed very intriguing.

However wouldn't frostbite be an issue for runners in that region; running in trimmed, superlight flats in consistently brutal sub zero temps?

I'll admit my guesstimate is that you'd need 2 pairs of sock at least, and how would THAT feel in 5oz flats?

Never tried it. The coldest I have EVER run in was -4 F and I was bundled up like the guys in the movie "Ice Station Zebra" just to tell one of my co-runners that I

actually did it.

Not that I was around in the 1970s but the winters in Minnesota are not consistently below zero. Below freezing, yes, but there's quite a difference.

Moreover you really don't need much on your feet to keep them warm even in temperatures that cold. So long as the rest of your body is warm the blood will circulate to your feet and they'll be fine.

Madelyn wrote:

Nasty over-pronation from Lel, the London Marathon Champion and former Half Marathon World Champion...

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/gallery/2005lisbon_hm/LisbonHalf05_171

Where's the overpronation? I can draw a straight line from his big tow up to his knee.

"Shoes are a major aspect because today good running shoes give you the chance to train much more and much better without suffering injuries. ASICS shoes are the best shoes for me. My choice is ASICS because it is my sincere opinion that they offer the best running shoes. After signing my first contract with ASICS I didn’t have any problems any more.”