So what exactly were Lydiards 50 meter sprints exactly?

Flo'da boy wrote:

This is sort of off topic and maybe a stupid question but is it true that sprinters use an abbreviated version of this for speed development. Something like sprint 50, float 50, sprint 50, full rest

Yes, but the physiological effect of that workout is much different. Only doing 50/50/50 is not enough to produce a stimulus for shuttling acidity and lactate out of the muscles, since you can easily sprint a full 150 without that much localized acidosis building up.

The "in between" 50's were much faster than 14 seconds. You're not doing the workout properly if you slow down that much. We used to do sprint/spin workouts to a whistle, 6 seconds sprinting (flat out with relaxation), 9 seconds spin (keep a very relaxed quick tempo, no push on the stride). I saw Thomas Wessinghage do the following. 2 x 2000 metres, 50 sprint/50 tempo, in about 5:25 each!

alejandro wrote:

The "in between" 50's were much faster than 14 seconds. You're not doing the workout properly if you slow down that much. We used to do sprint/spin workouts to a whistle, 6 seconds sprinting (flat out with relaxation), 9 seconds spin (keep a very relaxed quick tempo, no push on the stride). I saw Thomas Wessinghage do the following. 2 x 2000 metres, 50 sprint/50 tempo, in about 5:25 each!

20 times 6 seconds sprinting and 9 seconds floating would yield 5 minutes. Lydiard says about 7 minutes for this. He wouldn't say that if he meant 5 or even 6 minutes. And 20 reps were just for fast runners.

20 times 15s would mean 2000 m in 5 minutes, half of it sprinting. Not even El G would have managed that.

Just silly. And it shows zero comprehension of Lydiard's basic principles.

Who's talking about covering 2K in 5 minutes? Nobody said anything like that. Our 6 sprint/9 spin workouts were 3 laps max. Wessinghage's interpretation of the workout was pretty intense, but still around 5:25 for 2K. I talked quite a bit to Lydiard, and have a reasonably good understanding of his principles. Ron Clarke's version of this workout was doing 100/100's, he said flat out sprinting on the straights, and a quick but relaxed tempo on the turns. He got up to being able to do 8 laps of this, and he said no-one could stay with him more than 4 laps. I'm sure others did this workout at a lower level of intensity, especially in early season.

This is Arthur Lydiard explaining it in his own words

http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/lydiard-explaining-5050/

Flo'da boy wrote:

This is sort of off topic and maybe a stupid question but is it true that sprinters use an abbreviated version of this for speed development. Something like sprint 50, float 50, sprint 50, full rest

They do use something like this--50/50/50 would be an example of what are known as "hollow sprints"--and if they were doing them for true speed development, they would take full (or "very good") recoveries. By the way, you'd be more likely to see 40/40/40 or 40/30/30, etc.--somewhat shorter segments--if the object was development of top speed.

But even more than for top speed, variable-speed reps are valuable for developing speed endurance aka "stamina." The research on this was done in Eastern Europe, back in the day--some decades ago, now. It showed that speed endurance was better developed by variable-pace reps than by steady-speed reps, and that reps with multiple speed changes were most effective.

A simple example of this speed-endurance training is a set of 200s, run as sprint 40/float 40/spr 40/fl 40/spr 40. Medium recoveries between reps, and good (or very good) recoveries between sets. (If the recoveries are too short, then people lose intensity on the sprints and/or form breaks down.) But these reps can also include accelerations, decelerations, race pace, slower running, etc.--you're not limited to just sprint and float segments. These can also be done as a whistle drill e.g. stride on the first whistle, sprint on the second, jog on the third, gradual acceleration on a double whistle, whatever.

Umm no. "Doing it right", and "developing tons of lactate" is purely aerobic. This is in stark contrast to "classic" Lydiard "anaerobic training", e.g. 20x400.

ei5i5 wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

In any case, even though there is the high intensity of all out sprints, this is still meant to be a highly aerobic workout.

This is terribly misleading. Do this right and you'll develop tons of lactate. The whole point of the exercise is that you develop this with a fairly low total volume of work, compared to the classic 20 x 400 that Lydiard's guys did.

Compare this to true "alactic" sprint workouts, in which you sprint for just a few seconds then take a *complete* recovery before the next sprint.

Thanks for the detailed response lease, great stuff. What still confuses me about the "hollow sprints" is precisely why they are good for/ how they effect top sped development (the speed endurance aspect is more intuitive)

His Master's Voice wrote:

This is Arthur Lydiard explaining it in his own words

http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/lydiard-explaining-5050/

Thanks a lot man

How many times in a week did he make its athlete do the 50/50 sprints?

This would be more valuable had he included the recovery period on the intervals...

Flo'da boy wrote:

What still confuses me about the "hollow sprints" is precisely why they are good for/ how they effect top sped development (the speed endurance aspect is more intuitive)

First, apologies: I had meant to say that you're NOT limited to just sprint and float segments when doing variable-speed reps for developing speed endurance!

Second, I don't know why hollow sprints seem to help some people's development of top speed, and never saw any research indicating a mechanism. My guess--and that's all it is--is that after an acceleration/sprint phase, then a float phase characterized by relaxation and little effort (but still decent speed), that the athlete was simply "loose" enough on the second sprint phase to accelerate to a speed that s/he had previously not been able to touch.

As usual, different things work for different people, and some athletes seemed to get more out of hollow sprints than others did. In my own coaching I more frequently had people work on top speed by using overspeed (assisted) sprints--towing, or sprints on a very slight decline--and flying-start sprints of 20-40m. But I noticed that some really did seem to benefit from the hollow sprints. (And enjoyed them! Sometimes as coaches we lose sight of the fact that running extremely fast for a short distance just feels really, really good.)

Whatever drill(s) you use to develop top speed, I recommend having the wind at your back.

A.L wrote:

How many times in a week did he make its athlete do the 50/50 sprints?

0 times.

Apologies for the slight snark- but Lydiard didn't MAKE his athletes do anything. It was kind of a big part of his overarching philosophy. He might have been brusque, but he wasn't the coach barking orders and forcing things. He was the guy who'd watch you get three reps in and say "shut it down, you're not right today, try again tomorrow."

From what I understand, the 50/50s were just sharpeners- you'd do it maybe once or twice before you started racing, and once you had started racing, the races themselves were the race-specific training. I see much less of a need for those kind of workouts in a typical American high school schedule, where kids are racing 2-3 times a week anyway. You could probably get a kid just as sharp by having him race under-distance races in dual meets. Throw the two-miler in the 800, let the milers and half-milers race the 400 or the 4x400, etc.

With regard to the speed of the floats, they should be pretty quick- Walker and his ilk would run two miles in this fashion around 9:00 +/-. Reportedly, Walker once did 8:48 (or, about 30 sec slower than a flat out deuce). I've done stuff like this before to prepare for racing and it is BRUTAL.

Longer distance guys might even do 5k of this type of training- in a Sports Illustrated profile, Kenny Moore reports Viren doing 5000m of sprint/floats within ~20 seconds of his 5k PR! That's the kind of vicious work that a proper Lydiard base allows.

As most of us don't do the 'proper base' work, we should probably temper our sharpening efforts...

ok

i love Lydiards training

vigghrghrgibla wrote:

i love Lydiards training

thaths great

Lydiard is a legend.

Nice clip of Lasse Viren at 2:18 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGEcQcIm8k

Notice he is NOT floating along near top speed in between them, but rather is jogging along quite easily for recoveries.