Masters World Record, Andres Espinosa, and Doping

I was unaware of an insult from Cosmas. I would have said something to him when I last saw him. Wasn't much of a Cosmas fan based off the way he ditched his manager that brought him to the world stage.

clerk, you coming across like a complete dumb@ss.

1:01 Half Marathon is not an outlier to a 2:08:44 as a 40-year old.

Can someone out clerk, get his IP address? He is obviously RACIST.

Running fast in your late 30s and early 40s is not suspicious in and of itself, but running lifetime bests at that age with out major changes in training, diet, events, etc., is a red flag. I can't see someone running 20 marathons during their 30s and running a PR at age 40.

I am the first to say we should go much further in sanctioning the cheaters, but this kind of thing where you are presumed guilty because you improved stuff is pretty unfair. We don't know anything and have no evidence to present - but all speculation of cheating is fair game.

Nothing worse than being wrongfully accused...and anytime someone shows great improvement they are now considered a cheat.

I know someone who went from 25:30 PR for 8k just out of college to 23:45 in about a year and half = does that mean they doped? I happen to know they didn't dope because it was me. As a masters runner I am not shockingly fast - about 1:11 for a 1/2 marathon...but the second I run a 1:06-1:07 which would be at the world record level for my age - I will also probably be suspected or outright accused of doping eventhough I would gladly submit to any drug test any time - and allow it to be kept on record for as long as tester wanted...I would allow a urine test, a blood test, a hair sample whatever...hell you can even autopsy my body after I die...and I would even sign that right over to a respected testing group right now - but

I guess the message in our sport is if you work hard and improve you will be accused. If you outright cheat and even get caught, you will not be required to pay back the stolen money, your records probably won't even be stripped, at worst you will get a couple years ban (see Eddy H.). Essentially the proven cheaters get a mild slap on the wrist, the innocent get publically smeared.

I should note that I have no inside info or knowledge on this guys case (and apparently no one else on this board doe either) yet we drag his name though the mud because we think he cheated. NICE! keep up the good work

wejo wrote:

We've got an interesting back and forth on the old record holder Andres Espinosa that warrants discussion.

This is simply a bunch of BS specifically designed in the ongoing attempts to try and take heat away from the notorious DRUG CHEAT PAULA RADCLIFFE, then one who started and is behind all these spurious accusations of others.

Stop trying to cover up for RADCLIFFE and you will see the DRUG CHEAT.

TrackCoach wrote:

Running fast in your late 30s and early 40s is not suspicious in and of itself, but running lifetime bests at that age with out major changes in training, diet, events, etc., is a red flag. I can't see someone running 20 marathons during their 30s and running a PR at age 40.

If you saw video of Andres, you could see why he was a natural for the marathon....few are. What a metronome.

Your hypothetical doesn't make any sense.

It's not like improving by minutes at a time is a decision to flip on or off. As a masters runner, imagine what it would take to improve in the manner that those being discussed have. That would be you running faster than 23:45 as a masters. Be honest, is there any realistic way to surpass that best with the 1:11 body you have/had as a master, with no help?

@Leirbag, read my post again.

Bill R.'s development is irrelevant - he was known to race (overly so for this era) a lot as earning money from road-racing was still in its infancy. He was a shell at 40 (so was Shorter) of earlier years because he raced almost every week, sometimes twice in a weekend, for years. That is NOT a template for running fast 15-20 years later.

I know nothing about Espinoza, but perhaps (like Lopes, whose many injuries prevented him from overdoing it from 1976 - 83) he simply maintained the ability from his numerous 2h10 New York's (= 2h08 flat, fast course) if his training became geared toward (threshold emphasis) that race . It would be a different story if he kept that ability until his mid-40's. As has been said, a number of people ramp it up in their late 30's as a preface to trying for Master's records - Eamonn Coghlin and Dave Moorecroft for the mile, for example, and Lagat these days. That the 3 Brits (Ovett, Coe and Cram) didn't do that as well, says nothing about these two. No doubt that a marathoner can stay involved longer, if life circumstances allow. Reid Coolsaet just ran 2h11 at 35, there is nothing, apart from a personal decision, to say that he couldn't maintain that for 5 more years. Most people quit, then gain weight (look at how much Lopes gained after retirement), and can't get back (nor really want to either) to a previous level. Secondly, much like early maturers, some people are are not biologically the same at the same chronological age either. The assumption is that ALL 40-year olds should be the same, and that is NOT the case - some age well and some age poorly. I know some 40 year old's who look almost 60 (grey, almost white, hair) and others who still look 30. Everyone is different.

40 years ago today a little-known graduate student took ten minutes off his marathon pr and won Boston, setting the American record. Nobody has ever accused Bill Rodgers of cheating, and nobody with any credibility ever will. If a similar feat were achieved in next Monday's race, for sure people would be saying "that dude must be on something."

The cheaters need to be caught--absolutely--and banned for life--but there are also astounding performances that happen on any given day. Merely judging from time is not a fair basis to make an accusation.

Sean Norton wrote:

If a similar feat were achieved in next Monday's race, for sure people would be saying "that dude must be on something."

If a similar feat were achieved on Monday, people would be saying that the time sucked, but at least we know it was clean.

clerk, I read your post again. Here are the FACTS that you have over-looked.

2:07 Marathon PR

1:01 Half Marathon PR

2:08:44 Masters PR is not out of the ordinary for a world class marathoner. Next thing you're going to say is that Bill Rodgers's PR doesn't count, nor does Ryan Hall's right?

Get a clue.

Is it coincidence his slowest times seem to be WC or olympic races.. Where testing is maybe a little more strict?

1995 World Champs Marathon 2:16:44 age 32

1997 World Champs Marathon DNF age 34

2000 Olympic Marathon 2:18:02 age 37

2001 World Champs 2:23:06 age 38

2004 Olympic Marathon 2:29:43 age 41

Wow, NY and post have weak testing?

No one not even his agent pointed out that Troy never ran the sh!t out of Andres or any other of his athletes like Posso and Wetmore do. That is a bonus plus given the fact that he got started late he had a 16 year career? Who can say that? I don't think he ever DNFed either. Shows he was dedicated.

By the way I did read Troy's book. Very, very good and intense. Should be a movie.

No one not even his agent pointed out that Troy never ran the sh!t out of Andres or any other of his athletes like Posso and Wetmore do. That is a bonus plus given the fact that he got started late he had a 16 year career? Who can say that? I don't think he ever DNFed either. Shows he was dedicated.

By the way I did read Troy's book. Very, very good and intense. Should be a movie.

Not quite.... wrote:

Sean Norton wrote:

If a similar feat were achieved in next Monday's race, for sure people would be saying "that dude must be on something."

If a similar feat were achieved on Monday, people would be saying that the time sucked, but at least we know it was clean.

The time we are talking about--2:09:55--would have won three out of the past ten Boston Marathons. Under the sort of weather conditions that Boston frequently faces, that time far from sucks. Boston is very unpredictable. The courses in London and Berlin are not only fast because they are flat, they have very consistent weather. So I would not say the time sucks.

this article is amazingSalvador Garcia, the eccentric winner of the 1991 New York City Marathon, kept his distance on the other side. He had also come to the volcano for his weekly altitude training.He is a solitary, peculiar mara thoner who keeps his hair shoulder length and has Doberman pinschers named Napoleon, Hitler, Hussein and Gaddafi.While the others slept, Garcia lay in bed, wearing a beret, a full-length leather coat and leather driving gloves, eating a baked potato and speaking about a political world view that careened from socialism to fascism. He had been studying the works of Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Mao Zedong, he said, and had come to believe that socialism was only dormant, not dead."We are waiting to pounce," Garcia said, dismissing the other Mexican marathoners as "bourgeoisie" who had compromised themselves by taking money from the Government and corporate sponsors. So distrustful was Garcia that he kept an antitheft device on the steering wheel of his rusty Ford at the hostel. It hardly seemed necessary at high altitude, where there was no one else around to see his car, much less to steal it.

fred wrote:

Make it 13,800 feet.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/22/us/at-altitudes-up-to-13800-feet-runners-in-mexico-toil-to-excel-below.html

TrackCoach wrote:

Running fast in your late 30s and early 40s is not suspicious in and of itself, but running lifetime bests at that age with out major changes in training, diet, events, etc., is a red flag. I can't see someone running 20 marathons during their 30s and running a PR at age 40.

Jack Foster, John Campbell, Priscilla Welch, Joyce Smith all did.

So you just wanted to brag about your times. pathetic especially for a masters runners. Let me guess, you have $1M in the bank and model wife who you do 5-6 times a week.