Times needed to be recruited by an Ivy School

iowakidscanrun wrote:

I'm curious to get same information for a HS girl. What times required for HS girls to a)get admission preference and/or b)get $$ to run for an Ivy?

I'm going to treat this as serious and not trollage, because others are bound to be genuinely interested even if this particular poster might not be.

Second question first: There are NO "$$ to run for an Ivy." Ivy students, whether they're athletes or not, receive financial aid based on family need. As an example: I was a terrible high school runner, was not recruited for my (Ivy) university's team, and never went out for the squad; I still received a 3/4 ride (all scholarship, no work-study/loan) because I came from a working-class background.

And since my time, Ivy financial aid has improved. Nowadays a guy from a similar family economic situation would be able to attend his Ivy college free, or virtually free. More families are coming to understand that, so more families are willing to eschew the "Junior has an athletic scholarship!" brag, in favor of actually getting a better bottom line at an Ivy. As a result we're seeing more and more of the US's very top HS athletes deciding to go Ivy.

As for the first question (girls' times for admission preference): MUCH tougher call than for boys. I'm hoping that some of the current League coaches will weigh in. I did a bit of Ivy coaching/recruiting myself, but standards have improved generally since then; and, as with the boys, standards certainly vary from school to school and from year to year, depending on a given program's current/anticipated needs. To a current outsider, it seems that girls who've run under 4:55 and 10:50 will get a serious look anywhere--but I could be way off on that. IVY WOMEN'S COACHES: WHAT ARE YOUR CURRENT STANDARDS FOR RECRUITING/"PUSHING" AN APPLICATION?

Thanks ivy guy. I'm not trolling. My daughter is a junior in HS. She is a talented runner, placing high in state cc and with middle distance speed and ability. She continues to improve as we have been very cautious and conservative with her training. I would guess she will run 2:11-2:14 and at or near sub 5 this spring as a junior. She is a 4.0 student and may become a national merit finalist.

Appreciate other insight from current coaches.

Girl/Women recruiting is a completely different animal with priority once again being on their academic portfolio. We have turned down a handful of Valedictorians that ran sub-5:20 for 1600m, but we have also recruited a handful of 5:20-5:30 girls that have had successful careers in the League, improving every year.

Once again, let me give you some data,

http://www.tfrrs.org/lists/1397.html#57

As you can see from the early indicators, girls in high school can look to run the following performances to be recruited -

800m, 2:15-2:45

1600m, 5:00-5:30

3200m, 11:00-12:20

5000m, 16:30-19:30

Just look at those ranges. Once again, it is up to the program, but the determining factor is the SAT/ACT/GPA/Recommendations and academic portfolio. We are looking for girls that can balance academics and athletics and be a positive contribution to the school community. Balance is the key.

The beautiful part is that most of the girls I recruit are very high achievers and the determining factor ends up being FINANCIAL, rather than academics or athletics. Lots of smart, fast girls get recruited, but less than 5% can afford it once we get down to numbers.

But to your question, just as we look at a 4:30/9:50 boy, any girl that is 5:20/11:30 is on the radar.

hey ivy asst coach -

what does 'recruited' mean exactly?

well specifically does that mean you might nudge the admissions people for a 4:30 boy miler?

Ivy Asst Coach wrote:

800m, 2:15-2:45

Note that that the slow end in the tfrrs list are heptathletes.

Found this old thread and wondering if this rule of 4:30/9:50 still holds water. My son is a high academic achiever and loves to run. He wants to run college at a D1 school and was hoping an Ivy might be a good fit. He believes in his potential and so does his coach, but his junior times were only 4:36/9:53. He could share specific reasons why, but that's not the goal of this post.His academics are impressive, 35 ACT and 3.95UW/5.15W grade point average, will graduate high school with 11 AP classes (taking 5 senior year).

Ivy Asst Coach wrote:

Let me provide some data. Let's look at the early lists for Indoor,

http://tfrrs.com/lists/1397.html#57

-

In the Mile, we have performances ranging from 4:18 to 4:31 between Columbia, Princeton, and Dartmouth.

Over 3000m, we have 8:30 to 8:58, so if we convert to 3200m, then you are looking at 9:10-9:40 with Harvard and Brown athletes included.

Over 5000m, you have 14:37 and 15:26.

The ranges are drastic. I am at several lower key meets where many Ivy men run above 16:00 for 5000m on the track and over 9:00 for 3000m, and these are seasoned collegiate runners, not a high school recruit.

The data is there to support the 4:30/9:50 rule of thumb for recruiting purposes. I prefer to recruit on potential as opposed to actual times run in a high school program.

Son wants to run wrote:

Found this old thread and wondering if this rule of 4:30/9:50 still holds water.

My son is a high academic achiever and loves to run. He wants to run college at a D1 school and was hoping an Ivy might be a good fit. He believes in his potential and so does his coach, but his junior times were only 4:36/9:53. He could share specific reasons why, but that's not the goal of this post.

His academics are impressive, 35 ACT and 3.95UW/5.15W grade point average, will graduate high school with 11 AP classes (taking 5 senior year).

He might be able to walk onto the team (check with each school's coaches regarding walk-on policies) but his times aren't at the level where he'd get a push from coaches. Given his academic stats, he's a competitive applicant at any of the ivy league institutions, but without a coach's push/major donation, admission is a gamble no matter what his stats are.

Any reason why he won't look at top D3s? Williams, Pomona, UChicago, Hopkins, etc. are on par with the ivies academically and he could get a push from coaches, especially with a strong fall XC season. He's not running quite the times he'd need to get serious consideration as a recruit for MIT, but given his academics and a strong fall XC season, that might be another option (he could definitely walk on).

Contact coaches. In the two years since this thread started, many of the ivy league schools have stepped up their recruitment standards. I know multiple kids in the last few years who ran 4:20/9:30 as juniors and were only offered the chance to walk on.

By and large I would not recommend a 4:36/9:53 guy run for a strong D1 program (and all the Heps schools are fairly strong). The majority of recruiting happens junior spring through early senior fall, and regardless of training, injury history, illness, etc, 4:36/9:53 just isn't fast enough for most D1 schools. Your son could have a very rewarding experience running D3 and he'll be able to train competitively with the team, have a shot at making nationals a few years down the line, get some attention from his coach, and just have a better time of it. With an ivy, he'd likely spend the better part of four years barely hanging on in workouts, never racing large meets, and otherwise being ignored by the coaching staff.

It's a no brainer to me. I know several kids in the 2:00/4:20/9:30 range who elected to run D3 (I actually know kids running for all the D3s I mention in this post) rather than walk on D1, and none of them regret their decisions. With those times, one is at a level where it's worth it to have the balance D3 offers over the few perks of walking on D1 (basically a couple free pairs of shoes).

Reevaluate if your son has a ridiculous XC season and wins state/makes FL/makes NXN/etc, but as of now D3s seem the way to go.

Thanks for the reply. I would love to see others. Not interested in DIII running, only DI.

For example, I see several runners on Brown's roster who ran comparable times their Junior year. What Ivies would consider an athlete with my son's #s?

He would likely do ED/REA if he had a coach tell him he could be on the team, so the decision can't really wait until after XC.

It seems that some coaches might be looking for athletes with high AI to add to the team. Some coaches might also be looking for a kid with potential and the right personality to pull up the bottom of the roster, so they might be willing to have a conversation with someone with a strong commitment to sport.

3.95 unweighted GPA and 5.15 weighted? How does that work?

Son wants to run DI wrote:

It seems that some coaches might be looking for athletes with high AI to add to the team. Some coaches might also be looking for a kid with potential and the right personality to pull up the bottom of the roster, so they might be willing to have a conversation with someone with a strong commitment to sport.

BIngo. This is it in a nutshell. The key is to contact coaches and get a sense of their current needs!

I've been on all the Ivy campuses and spoken to all their staffs, but the current situation at Cornell is interesting and perhaps instructive. Over the past few years, under Zeb Lang, Cornell's recruiting standards have unquestionably toughened markedly (in response to the rising competitive level in the Ivy League)...but anecdotally I've heard that Cornell has still been courteous in responding to inquiries, and that Lang has encouraged some so-called "marginal" prospects, even if he couldn't use a coach's push to help their applications. (Under Lang, and Rojo before him, some of their very top collegiate distance/mid-distance athletes had been lesser lights in high school.)

But Lang has just left Cornell, and they're in the process of signing a new distance coach. This might be a time when they're particularly open to inquiries and might welcome and boost applications from "lesser" athletes (really? 9:53 as a junior isn't really that bad, is it?) who are academically outstanding and willing to commit. The point is, that's just speculation on my part--you'd have to contact Cornell, or any other Ivy, to get a true sense of their situation *this year*.

Some of the Ivies are smaller and have a more limited number of coaches' "pushes" available for their recruits. So it wouldn't surprise me if Princeton, for instance--which does an outstanding job of recruiting, year in and year out, and has the name recognition to prompt many top runners to initiate contact--pretty much had to stick with dealing with the more "prime beef" recruits, guys who've already shown by their junior year that they're close to the top of the national list. But even there, I'm speculating; a call or email to their staff could be very enlightening!

And, as somebody pointed out above, pretty much every Ivy--regardless of its recruiting standards--has got guys on the current roster that don't meet what we might think of as competitive D1 times. Gotta think that those guys have gotten, and stayed, on the roster because they have an attitude and a commitment that the coaches think are a plus for the team.