Is this a good base phase for 800m?

goinalltheway wrote:

M- ladder workout (50-75-100-125-100-75-50 by 2 with 1:00 rest between intervals and 6 min between set) + plyometrics

T- AM- 20-30 min easy run PM- Explosiveness weight training

W- core workout

T- hills 6-7 with 4 min rest +plyometrics

F- rest or core workout

S- 7 by 150 with 2 min rest and 3 by 100 with walk back rest

S- 30 min easy run + 5 by 100

explosiveness workout would consist of:

power cleans

box jumps

switch lunge

squat with leg lift

lunges with weight

dumbell bench press

and possibly power snatch

hows that

This is okay, but remember he is running an 800. This plan will surely help him run a great opening 400 meters and then die horribly.

Keep the hills and the plyos, plus even those 150s every once in a while, but run higher mileage and do some 600/800/1000s or a tempo run once a week.

[quote]goinalltheway wrote:

M- ladder workout (50-75-100-125-100-75-50 by 2 with 1:00 rest between intervals and 6 min between set) + plyometrics

T- AM- 20-30 min easy run PM- Explosiveness weight training

W- core workout

T- hills 6-7 with 4 min rest +plyometrics

F- rest or core workout

S- 7 by 150 with 2 min rest and 3 by 100 with walk back rest

S- 30 min easy run + 5 by 100

explosiveness workout would consist of:

power cleans

box jumps

switch lunge

squat with leg lift

lunges with weight

dumbell bench press

and possibly power snatch

I take it ur in HS. What guys are trying to say here is the 800 is the toughest race in HS, I think. At about 500 the race really starts. You are way to focused on all this lifting and explosive burst stuff. Like any distance race in HS you got 3 phases. You are gonna need the base mileage build. AND you got to get a good hold on your base mileage phase. One of the most important intervals you will need for the 800 is negative split and negative intervals. You need to come thru that 400 comfortable, at say 63 because the race is now gonna begin. You got to now go negative. The 100 and 200's and all this weights and stuff have their place but aint gonna help much thru the 400, into the 500 when everyone goes. If you just began, after base phase, hitting 5X600 negative split, for one workout example,it would be huge. At the beginning I would give you a freakin 4:30 or better rest. BUT ur attempting all work at negative. So maybe you go 350 meters at 75 pace and 250 meters is negative say at 66 flat pace. Ill shut up now but ya got to rethink this, find a real coach. NEGATIVES! :))

oddgs wrote:

Peter Snell (double or triple olympic champion) ran 100 hard miles a week plus another 40 of jogging. In 800 metre you gotta develop your aerobic system first. Developing your anaerobic system and tolerance is no problem as long as you have a good aerobic base

So what? Maybe he could have run a faster 800 with proper 800 training rather than marathon training. You think 800 training hasn't progressed since Snell and Lydiard?

You can't run a good 800 without a good 400, and what you're suggesting will do nothing for your 400.

800m boy wrote:

There are two ways you can train, short to long or long to short.

There's a 3rd way - concurrent.

With 400 and 800 being speed endurance events, I don't see how you can only train that speed endurance briefly before comp. You can do diagonals and hills during base. Diagonals give you some speed endurance without trashing your legs (the reps are shorter) and get you used to running fast and relaxed over and over.

Karma Police wrote:

You can't run a good 800 without a good 400, and what you're suggesting will do nothing for your 400.

Nothing anybody has suggested so far will do anything. This thread is pretty silly, but I didn't want to be the first to say so because someone would start endlessly debating me.

OP: 150's full/moderate recovery for 400, 300m full/moderate to 600m full for 800.

But first, sprint workouts. 400m speed is limited by your maximum speed, which can only be reached on phosphocreatine power in the first few seconds after you start. That means short reps and full recovery. Phosphocreatine energy is free - it doesn't use oxygen or affect blood pH, so it pays to get out fast. Once you're used to higher speeds, your other energy systems will adapt to maintaining that speed. But they can't do that until you actually run that fast.

Best to get workouts and advice from a sprint website.

[quote]Bad Wigins wrote:

Nothing anybody has suggested so far will do anything. This thread is pretty silly, but I didn't want to be the first to say so because someone would start endlessly debating me.

OP: 150's full/moderate recovery for 400, 300m full/moderate to 600m full for 800.

But first, sprint workouts. 400m speed is limited by your maximum speed, which can only be reached on phosphocreatine power in the first few seconds after you start. That means short reps and full recovery. Phosphocreatine energy is free - it doesn't use oxygen or affect blood pH, so it pays to get out fast. Once you're used to higher speeds, your other energy systems will adapt to maintaining that speed. But they can't do that until you actually run that fast.

Best to get workouts and advice from a sprint website.

I have no idea why this person would give you this insane crap. This seems set up perfectly for you to die in the 800 and fail. For you the 800 is not some insane sprint.There is no debate...Id have you at sub 2:00 in 5 weeks. I wouldn't have to use any of this. Its the 800..tell u what try this batcrap, when u get to the 500 and die skip this bull and train for the 800.

i agree with hans yolo. i have never seen a 800m guy, aerobically strong, who failed. on the other hand i know some 800m guys with natural speed and good physical strength, but a little bit unwilling to do aerobic work.

all hard interval workouts end up in the same way: they slow down with every rep, more or less, heavily breathing.

no difference in race situations.

There isn't much base in that base phase (opening post). If you want to become a better runner, you have to RUN...

Mileage (depending on your training age): 35-80mpw

Day 1: Easy long run, start at 8mi, build to 10mi easy.

Day 2: Very short recovery run/rest

Day 3: Progression run (can evolve in more structured LT tempo run)

Day 4: Easy run

Day 5: Hill sprints (progressing from6x8sec to 10x8sec to 10x10sec, to flat sprints (6x100)

Day 6: Easy run

Day 7: fartlek (30sec-2min. at 10k-5k pace with short jog rest)

Repeat for at least 10 weeks.

Could you give me an idea of your training battycarp.or a training program. Thanks

What do you suggest I do then battycarp.

First are u a freshman? Are you targeting a specific 800 race soon? I like your height at 15 and times actually. Its hard to suggest things when were not sure of your timeline meaning are you targeting a 800 in Nov. or are you looking at indoor for your first year HS? The main thing is if you are serious about running into HS, you want to take very good care of yourself, be patient, short range goals increase next year etc. Lets say you were looking at indoor your soph year. So the big dance is like Feb 13..Simplot, out here in the west. I would have you keep a good calendar and journal. Starting tomorrow we would go to a base phase mileage build.We need to determine your Easy long run pace, maybe that's 7 flat per mile. Maybe a hard long run pace, maybe 6:45. Maybe a easy start on a short tempo..so what would be your tempo pace be. Lets say on the track you go all out for a 5000, example you hit 18:00 flat. So about 5:50 per mile? We add 15 to 20 sec to that per mile..so tempo might be 6:05 to 6:10. We experiment with maybe a 3 mile tempo for awhile. let me do another post...cont..

Bad Wigins wrote:

battycarp wrote:

the 800 is not some insane sprint.

You've inadvertently given one of the best descriptions of the 800 ever. Yes, an insane sprint is exactly what it is.

But that's not even the point. The OP stated that the goal is to improve 400 speed. Maybe you think the 400's not a sprint either?

Improving 400 speed is the right goal, as it is not possible to run sub 2 if 57 is your all-out 400. 55 at the slowest is necessary, and the faster the better. OP is already trained at distance, so any improvement from that is limited by diminishing returns, whereas the potential improvement from starting sprint training is very high.

Good point let me rephrase, the 800 is not some insane sprint for a 15 yr old boy just beginning at the 800. I agree , believe me the 800 is undescribable...I ran it for years. A 15 yr old needs very slow development. Ive trained young guys at this age and its a total different story at this age. Young guys like this could struggle to break a 60 in the 400 this year..then after summer off they walk on the track ,first time next year , a inch taller and fly like nothing and hit a 53! Not sure what u mean already trained at distance. Think you have to have your phases, the time will come for the speed work. Again don't know what his time line is or what his target season is.

Here is what I mean about younger guys. Last several years at our state meets the state champ in the mile..and 2nd and 3rd...along with the 2 mile state champ jump into the 800 meter state final. Against the fast 800 meter trained guys. Guess who wins almost always. These milers easily drop down and run some sick 1:51 or like this year a freakin 1:48. Just a bit different in HS. IMHO.

battycarp wrote:

the 800 is not some insane sprint.

You've inadvertently given one of the best descriptions of the 800 ever. Yes, an insane sprint is exactly what it is.

But that's not even the point. The OP stated that the goal is to improve 400 speed. Maybe you think the 400's not a sprint either?

Improving 400 speed is the right goal, as it is not possible to run sub 2 if 57 is your all-out 400. 55 at the slowest is necessary, and the faster the better. OP is already trained at distance, so any improvement from that is limited by diminishing returns, whereas the potential improvement from starting sprint training is very high.

Post 2...Ok so these next 6 weeks a coach needs to learn you. I mean say you are to go 35 miles your first week. If I say ok 6 mile, day one, at easy long run pace. You do it but next morn your sore, tight hams tight. We need to stretch and deal with this...slowly, maybe next day off. Your eaten like a pig, chocolate milk, a meal 90 min after run. Maybe cold water soak 10 minutes, maybe next day your on track, warm up and jog 1600,,,now our only hard work on the track this one day a week...for say next 5 weeks. Lets do 2 X 1 mile breakdown. Were just gonna learn about you, so I'm gonna send you 600,300,300,200,100,100 X2. Gonna give u big rest, maybe 5 min between reps. Learning ur recovery, your stride, your gears, etc. May send u at 1:55 on 600, maybe 52 in 300 and 31 200. Ur just learning about you. Great video on flotrack called Bernie Montoya mile break downs wow. Of course u don't run his speed...yet. Maybe Sat we send you easy 4 morn, easy 5 late Sat even to begin introduction to a 2 a day...late Sun even a long run maybe 6.5. Next day off. Maybe by week 3 we set u up for 40. After this phase we go to 2 hard days a week, negative split work, gear changing longer intervals..maybe 4x1000 +2x800. Mile breakdown goes faster..way faster. Thing is the 800 in a very tough run..u want to be doing things like running those 1000's negative...2 gears 600 one pace and 2nd gear last 400 ..u got to fly. Tactics and how to run a 800 is huge. Maybe at 4 weeks we do timed trial. We learn a ton about you. Keep a log on your times and rest periods etc. Protect yourself rest and recover! I watched a 800 meter champ HS guy last month running 1500, 1500, 1200,1200,1000,1000 all negative split. Four days later he was running all 300's, 200.s 100,s and 50's. Ill check bac on this post in day or two. Take care of youself!

I am a junior. In highschool

Battycarp could you lay out a schedule for what you said?

Your only 15 and a junior in HS! OK could you tell me your timeline..what are you targeting, meaning is it indoor or outdoor this season. Your just focusing on the 800? Do you got anyone in your corner on this meaning Dad or Mom or coach?