Webb triathlon update

WebbTriesTri wrote:

Webb finishes second due to transition splits

http://www.sportstats.ca/displayResults.xhtml?racecode=107152

As someone who knows a few people in the top 10 AND realizes who the winner actually is, I can say that Webb did not lose due to transitions, but rather because of his racing tactics.

Kyle Jones is a world class triathlete who happened to be competing against national class triathletes this weekend. As a result, there was no incentive to push the pace beyond what he wanted to and the fact that the top 20+ was decided on the run suggested that at least Kyle was only running for the win, not to push it on the bike or swim.

In a world class triathlon, Alan Webb would have been dropped long before the run.

He might get dropped in an Olympic distance race, but judging by his most recent performances he would at worst come out of the water with the second pack in a sprint distance race. The depth of the WTS races is such that the second pack has as strong or stronger cyclists relative to the first pack, who are willing to crush themselves to catch up. Therefore he should be able to contend, even if he does come out of the water 25s back.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the olympic distance, as so far we've only seen him compete at the sprint and relay (about 1/3 of a sprint) distance.

As an aside, the 5k course in Magog is 100-200m short.

RunWild wrote:

WebbTriesTri wrote:

Webb finishes second due to transition splits

http://www.sportstats.ca/displayResults.xhtml?racecode=107152

As someone who knows a few people in the top 10 AND realizes who the winner actually is, I can say that Webb did not lose due to transitions, but rather because of his racing tactics.

Kyle Jones is a world class triathlete who happened to be competing against national class triathletes this weekend. As a result, there was no incentive to push the pace beyond what he wanted to and the fact that the top 20+ was decided on the run suggested that at least Kyle was only running for the win, not to push it on the bike or swim.

In a world class triathlon, Alan Webb would have been dropped long before the run.

Horse shit!

If you sort the results by swim/bike/run times, Webb is in the top 10 in each. If you sort by transition times, Webb isn't even in the top 20. Also, yes, Kyle Jones has had some decent results in WTS, but in this race, there were 3 or 4 faster swimmers (~20 seconds faster), and Jones came into T2 in the back of the pack (just a couple of spots behind Webb). Jones wasn't so dominating in this group that he dictated the entire race. He most certainly didn't set the swim pace. Bike is a little more nuanced because it's asinine to attack the group in a draft-legal tri regardless of your bike strength. Webb had the fastest run in the group, but ran out of real estate. He had to play catch-up out of T1 and T2 (again loosing 9 seconds to Jones). Jones had top 10 for each transition...his second being the second fastest in the entire group. With this being Webb's third tri, I think that's to be expected. More races will make his transitions quicker.

At the risk of provoking... wrote:

http://www.insidehalton.com/sports-story/4641844-jones-wins-third-straight-national-triathlon-title/

Article says that..."Jones won the race, which also served as the national championships, by outsprinting American Alan Webb to the finish line"

I know there are a lot of factors in the tri, etc... but I'm still having trouble believing that Webb didn't catch, sit, and kick by Jonesy...

Anyone at the race and see the last mile?

Also for the statisticians out there, this may be the first time that Webb has lost to a Canandian at any distance??!

No. Webb at least lost to Brannen in his final race. Very likely there have been other Canadians who beat him after he reached the point where he couldn't keep up in races anymore.

The way they are bringing him along makes sense. He can compete at the shorter lengths and that is motivating. Had they thrown him in an Olympic distance too soon he would be far behind and go home devastated.

Mitt wrote:

The way they are bringing him along makes sense. He can compete at the shorter lengths and that is motivating. Had they thrown him in an Olympic distance too soon he would be far behind and go home devastated.

He was scheduled to compete at the Toronto a PATCO event a couple weeks, until he had the opportunity to participate in a training camp in Spain. He decided to go to Spain instead. Toronto was an Olympic distance event. The plan seems to be to compete in lower level triathlons this year.

Although he is registered for another PATCO event in August, I am thinking that he should already be competing in World Cup events (maybe not WTS events yet). I'm not sure what he will gain from another PATCO event.

Maybe he should skip Kelowna (PATCO event) and compete in Hungary (World Cup event) instead in August. Webb is now ranked 329th on the ITU points ranking as a result of his second place finish in Magog, but has obviously beaten several top 100 athletes now.

So Webb finished between Jones,a guy ranked no. 26th in the world and Vanort ranked no. 53rd in the world. I would say that is wicked good progress.

Like Ron Howard now and not Ron Howard as Richie Cunningham.

Gel??? wrote:

How did his hair look?

The Olympic distance is a different beast. If Webb breaks two hours in his first Olympic then hes on the right track. If Webb breaks 1hr:50min watch out cause Webb is back. A sprint can be won with limited endurance but an olympic is tough without very long hours on the bike, 24mph + takes a lot out of your legs.

tri running is different. every aspect of it... webb's tri running is as good as medium tier WTS tri pros now. no better... not yet. his letsrun.com running kick is nullified in a triathlon until he gets his chops down. the swim is very hard overall and fatigues your body in a way that doing strides to warm up doesn't. swim and bike beat you up where as strides before a 5000m help you... imagine working a 5 hour shift, standing as a checker or something, then racing a 5k. adjusting to this is the learning curve webb is quickly adapting to now. it's where mola, gomez, brownlees, murray have reached after years of triathlon specific running.. a lot of other world cup (wts) pro men who are amazing tri runners who would not run anywhere near what you would expect in run racing alone... its a different animal.

Have you ever seen world class runners (oh, let's say Galen Rupp) start a race behind less talented guys, conserve energy, then do enough to win?

Yep, it's the same thing. Jones was just cruising, saved enough energy in the first two legs while Webb had to try much harder, then Jones held him off in the 5K. Why would you bust your ass in the swim when you know you can overtake them on the bike?

If it was just a 5K, then yes Webb would probably win. But some non-triathlon fans need to realize that triathletes are damn good runners. It's not like Webb is gonna crush these guys by 20 seconds in the 5K portion when he's new to the sport.

They just did a super-sprint tri distance the other week as part of team relays, and Webb could barely even pass his pack in the MILE run, where he has the AR. Running fresh and running after two legs of a tri aren't exactly the same thing.

I do know a thing or two about it. I'm a 2-time national championship participant in the 70.3 distance and 4-time XTERRA national championship participant (placing in the top 15 each time). I have been exactly where Webb was in this race...loosing it in the transitions.

InWyo wrote:

I do know a thing or two about it. I'm a 2-time national championship participant in the 70.3 distance and 4-time XTERRA national championship participant (placing in the top 15 each time). I have been exactly where Webb was in this race...loosing it in the transitions.

well the transitions count don't they.

I've done these things too.

Was Webb given ideal transition spots?

with all the swim and bike drafting it is pretty hard to tell what Webb can or can't do, is he straining to keep contact with the pack or is he leading it, hopefully Webb's window to learn and improve is long

A few things:

1, Webb with out a doubt could have won that race with better transitions.

2. The quality of that race was only a notch below a US national (sprint) championship; Webb could probably make a national team at the sprint distance.

3. What does that race say about Webb's capability in a WTC level Olympic distance, something, but not a lot. I suspect the longer distances will expose his lack of development in the water on the bike and force him to work so hard that it hurts his run as well.

4. When Webb left competitive running, his performances weren't much better than what the the top triathletes are capable of. Basically, at the WTC level, Webb is not going come from far back and catch the top guys on the run.

5. I am pretty sure Webb over the last year has worked far more on his swim and bike...he already knows how to run. Developing the ability to run off of the bike will take time. Right now, his legs are probably shot coming off of the bike, but as he gets stronger on the bike, he won't have to work as hard, which will leave more energy for the run. His run will also get better when he can focus on it more.

6. Webb needs at least a year or two before he can complete with the big dogs at the Olympic distance...it is going to take time, but so far, he gets in A for what he has already been able to accomplish. Btw, I know talented triathletes who had spent a lifetime trying to get to where Webb is in one year.

have never seen anyone lose credibility so quickly. amateur slogfest 70.3's.... where minutes in transitions define the finish outcome, exactly the same as for wts, draft legal professional racing where seconds define a transition.... brilliant. and you paid your way into an exterra nat race (er, "qualified") because the race directors cant fill the amateur fields... zero prestige or related experience to what webb is doing. webb is professional racing draft legal. you are not. you should have just said, I read a lot about professional draft legal racing. could have kept some cred. know your place....

Methinks there are two types of posters on this thread - 1) runners/Webb fans who want Webb to take over the triathlon world and 2) triathlon fans who want Webb to fail at the triathlon so they can "validate" how great pro triathletes are.

trackcoach wrote:

A few things:

1, Webb with out a doubt could have won that race with better transitions.

Disagree. The race is about place, not time, so losing by a few seconds and then trying to "find" that time in the transitions isn't valid. You can clearly see on the faces of the top few competitors that the winner didn't go all out. He did what he needed to do to win the race and finished looking very relaxed. Webb, in place 2, and the guy in 3rd, were clearly redlining it to keep up with that guy, and had nothing left at the end to kick after him. Had Webb shaved 10 seconds off in the transitions, he still would have lost to the superior athlete who didn't have to work as hard.

2. this was canadian sprint champs. same level as US sprint champs. not a notch below. kyle jones is the top cnnuck right now for draft legal. whitfield is out and brent mcmahon oscillates between non draft money races and occasional draft legal itu racing. there is no national team for sprint distance as there is no world champs for sprint distance. pros register and race the sprint champs. that's it. done.

3. WTC is World Triathlon Corporation. they operate ironman brand events. I agree with what you said, I suspect if webb runs a marathon off the bike it will expose his lack of development. agreed. I just don't think he has 26.2 in him off the bike...

4. tell you a little secret... WTS/ITU... (not WTC) different governing bodies coach..

5. legs dont get shot from a 40k draft legal race. they get temporarily fatigued, mostly from yoyoing off the back or on a hilly, multi loop course. steady state efforts at 40k dont shoot legs. or unsteady state efforts...

6. he's ready to "complete" now. he can finish any race to completion I believe. just walk it in. in fact, he can probably also compete and make the 3rd group out of the water in an oly, wts race, right now. probably second group out of the water in fact... and these groups tend to bridge up, into one large pack by the end of the bike on flat courses, meaning webb could get off the bike with the leaders if he was aggressive heading into T2.... even if he is not at the front of the large group, he'd only be 8 - 10 seconds back if he were at the back of the big pack coming into T2.

anyway, he is swimming like crazy now... sure of that.

Alan, if you're reading... you are ready dood!! get a wts race like yokohama next spring. every May. flat, protected smooth water, multi loop course where the bike groups always come together by T2, and a flat fast run... could sit in the second group for the most part, take a couple easy pulls (soft pedal through), and wait for the run magic...

el duque wrote:

...

Was Webb given ideal transition spots?

Good question, Was anybody there?

Typically the transition area in Magog is a grassy area (sometimes has mud). When you come off the bike, you go down a small grassy incline. If someone does not have experience, he may come down too quick and his bike will bounce out of control (thus losing precious seconds). Is that what happened to Webb? His transitions were amazing in the Hamburg relay, so I was quite surprised to see such slow transitions in Magog.

BTW: anybody that knows anything about running will know that it's a lot more difficult to win a 5,000m when you give the race favourite a 7 second head start. Yes, a good T2 could have helped him win the race (not that he would have won, but it would have increased his chances)