Agreed
Agreed
i do agree that 5 min rest is a lot and that's why i created this thread, so i could try to understand the benefit of this training and the thoughts of my coach. As i said he believes i could almost keep the avg pace of this workout for the race (2-3s slower for the race, he said). I do think would be very difficult. Of course i discussed with him but was not convinced, so wanted to discuss further to check other thoughts.
it's interesting to see that while some think I could aim 15:30 others think i am not able to run 9:25 for 3.000.
All these discussions sum a lot to my trainings and I thank you guys for it.
back to running wrote:
make the rest in 70 seconds jog, and then it will be a good indicator of what you can do.
All these people saying the rest is too short are missing the point of the workout.
It would be too long if done at 5k pace. But 5*1000 with 5:00 rest should almost certainly not be meant as a 5000 race pace workout. It is a true VO2 max workout. Reasonable goal pace for this would be closer to 3000 race pace.
Here is a Brenda Martinez workout: 8*1000 with 3:00 rest:
http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/712300-Brenda-Martinez-interval-session-with-all-out-400m-tagIf I recall, she averages around 2:55, and Brenda Martinez doesn't have 14:35 ability; she has a 15:35 from last year (3:07 km pace). 2:55 is a bit faster than her 3000 PR pace.
Speaking very roughly...
5-6 * 1000 with 1:00-1:30 rest - ~5k pace
3-5 * 1000 with 3:00+ rest - ~3k pace
8 * 1000 with 3:00 rest at 3k pace - Brenda Freaking Martinez
klosic wrote:
he believes i could almost keep the avg pace of this workout for the race (2-3s slower for the race, he said). I do think would be very difficult.
You are right.
If you run this workout hard there should be no living way you can replicate the pace for a continuous 5000. Said another way, which may resonate more, of course you should be able to run 5000 meters at faster than your 5000 PR pace, when you add 20 minutes of rest into the mix!
Think logically. The recovery that happens 5 minutes is huge. How can you expect to come near that in a race? Basically by definition you undertrained if you do that.
As others are saying, call your average in this workout your 3000 pace. Your 5000 pace is probably around 10 seconds per 1000 slower than this, not 2-3.
Next time slow down to about 630 pace for the rest instead of a jog and slow down the "hard" part, turn it into more of a threshold workout. If you are going to do an interval workout, do it right. But I guess this all depends on when your goal race is and where you are in the cycle. Understand the concept of what you are trying to achieve through the workout and only go as hard as necessary to do so.
young master wrote:
back to running wrote:make the rest in 70 seconds jog, and then it will be a good indicator of what you can do.
All these people saying the rest is too short are missing the point of the workout.
It would be too long if done at 5k pace. But 5*1000 with 5:00 rest should almost certainly not be meant as a 5000 race pace workout. It is a true VO2 max workout. Reasonable goal pace for this would be closer to 3000 race pace.
Here is a Brenda Martinez workout: 8*1000 with 3:00 rest:
http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/712300-Brenda-Martinez-interval-session-with-all-out-400m-tagIf I recall, she averages around 2:55, and Brenda Martinez doesn't have 14:35 ability; she has a 15:35 from last year (3:07 km pace). 2:55 is a bit faster than her 3000 PR pace.
Speaking very roughly...
5-6 * 1000 with 1:00-1:30 rest - ~5k pace
3-5 * 1000 with 3:00+ rest - ~3k pace
8 * 1000 with 3:00 rest at 3k pace - Brenda Freaking Martinez
thanks for the explanation. I just don't see where the 5 * 1000 w/ 5 minutes jog fits. I assume that resting 5:00 is different than resting 3, right?
Anyway, it's good to see that in your opinion i could run ~9:15-18 for 3k. That's some seconds off my PB. Assuming that when I ran 9:24 i ran 16:18 some days later or before (don't remember exactly) i should be around 16:00 this time.
young master wrote:
klosic wrote:he believes i could almost keep the avg pace of this workout for the race (2-3s slower for the race, he said). I do think would be very difficult.
You are right.
If you run this workout hard there should be no living way you can replicate the pace for a continuous 5000. Said another way, which may resonate more, of course you should be able to run 5000 meters at faster than your 5000 PR pace, when you add 20 minutes of rest into the mix!
Think logically. The recovery that happens 5 minutes is huge. How can you expect to come near that in a race? Basically by definition you undertrained if you do that.
As others are saying, call your average in this workout your 3000 pace. Your 5000 pace is probably around 10 seconds per 1000 slower than this, not 2-3.
Agreed. He didn't said it was the same pace, but a bit slower. He mentioned 2-3 seconds but I think he truly thought it should be around 5s slower, which i also think would be hard. Maybe you're right about the 10s, though that would put me right around my PR shape.
gulpgulp wrote:
Next time slow down to about 630 pace for the rest instead of a jog and slow down the "hard" part, turn it into more of a threshold workout. If you are going to do an interval workout, do it right. But I guess this all depends on when your goal race is and where you are in the cycle. Understand the concept of what you are trying to achieve through the workout and only go as hard as necessary to do so.
That's exactly what i am trying to do - understand the concept of what i am doing. I never tested running a 6:30 pace for the "rest" part. I think i'd have to slow down a lot to be able to finish it. Would you run 5 minutes for the rest part at this 6:30 pace?
klosic wrote:
I just don't see where the 5 * 1000 w/ 5 minutes jog fits. I assume that resting 5:00 is different than resting 3, right?
I would say 5:00 is at the long end of reasonable rest for 5x1000 at 3000 pace, but not out of bounds. Note that 5000 at vVO2max is a lot of work.
I have more often done and read plans with 3-5x1000 at 3000 pace on 2:30-3:30 rest.
By the way, at that pace I would suggest you can go ahead and do whatever you want in the recovery. Walk, shuffle, jog a bit, whatever; don't feel compelled to keep moving at any real pace. As a poster above mentioned, at a slower interval pace (say 5-10k pace) the continuous effort of a jog recovery would make for a great threshold workout, but this is a different thing entirely.
Do check out that B-Mart workout!
Someone posts a session and all the LR experts come out.
ukathleticscoach:
If the session you described (or similar) worked for Moorcroft but not for you, how do you it's "crap"?
Obviously you have to run the reps way faster than 5000m pace. Dave Moorcroft's training prior to his 5000m WR included regular sessions of 6 x 1000 at2:30 or under with similar recovery to yours. It's a good speed endurance session ; holding good speed (somewhere between 3000 & 1500) for a prolonged period. even for the longer track events not everythinh needs to be short recovery work. A really tough session if done properly ; I would say you need a better base than you seem to possess to get the most benefit from this session.
Shaq wrote:
Someone posts a session and all the LR experts come out.
This is what is used to be like every day!
klosic wrote:
so my coach sent me this training today, which i found to be very strange. I had never done these sets with such a long jog (~5 minutes) between.
he also told me i should be able to finish a 5k 2-3s over my average of this exercise.
my average was 3:05 with a 3:02 last one, but I think it would be very hard to believe i could finish a 15:35 5k.
What guidance did he give you on how to think about pace for the pickups?
Anyway, my best guess is that your coach wanted you to take such long rest between the pickups so that you'd hit all 5 of them hard and not worry about recovery. 3 minutes of standing rest or easy walk/jog would have probably accomplished the same thing, but by making it 5 minutes I think he wanted to eliminate any temptation to do the pickups on less than full recovery.
I'd say the 6k tempo @ 20:40 is a better indicator of overall fitness and can be a slightly better predictor IF:
1. It was a true tempo, with heart rate not surpassing the mid 80% range
2. It was run under the same conditions that you would be racing at
Your training looks pretty similar to what my high school kids do (but I don't give them 5 min rest when we do 1000s). If you really end up doing 15:30 for 5k off of 35 miles a week with the type of training you described, it would indicate that your talent is FAR above average.
ukathleticscoach wrote:garbage, you can do much faster than 3km pace with this session. It is a crap session there is no excuse to use it
I disagree quite strongly. There's no way anybody is running "much faster" than 3k pace in this session. If it were only 2-3 x 1000, I would agree, but not 5 of them, absolutely no way. This is a ball buster session if right at or close to 3k pace.
ukathleticscoach, I'm quite surprised you would write this, you've struck me as relatively knowledgeable about distance training in the past.
some thoughts wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:garbage, you can do much faster than 3km pace with this session. It is a crap session there is no excuse to use itI disagree quite strongly. There's no way anybody is running "much faster" than 3k pace in this session. If it were only 2-3 x 1000, I would agree, but not 5 of them, absolutely no way. This is a ball buster session if right at or close to 3k pace.
ukathleticscoach, I'm quite surprised you would write this, you've struck me as relatively knowledgeable about distance training in the past.
And in fact it seems the OP did it a little bit faster than 3k PR pace.
some thoughts wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:garbage, you can do much faster than 3km pace with this session. It is a crap session there is no excuse to use itI disagree quite strongly. There's no way anybody is running "much faster" than 3k pace in this session. If it were only 2-3 x 1000, I would agree, but not 5 of them, absolutely no way. This is a ball buster session if right at or close to 3k pace.
ukathleticscoach, I'm quite surprised you would write this, you've struck me as relatively knowledgeable about distance training in the past.
UK Coach hates any rest longer than 60-90 seconds for the same reason I used to hate rest longer than 60-90 seconds...that type of training was what he did when he was competing and he feels it didn't work for him.
There are so many ways to bring about PR fitness, long rest intervals at faster than race pace certainly have their place on the training menu, but are by no means the only thing, nor is a session like that a good predictor.
dkny64 wrote:And in fact it seems the OP did it a little bit faster than 3k PR pace.That's a fairly facile observation. His 3k PB is clearly worse than 1500 and 5k, which both line up reasonably well with projecting a 3k pace close to what this session indicates. And in any event, current fitness and past performance (reflected in PBs) are not necessarily connected.
some thoughts wrote:
dkny64 wrote:And in fact it seems the OP did it a little bit faster than 3k PR pace.That's a fairly facile observation. His 3k PB is clearly worse than 1500 and 5k, which both line up reasonably well with projecting a 3k pace close to what this session indicates. And in any event, current fitness and past performance (reflected in PBs) are not necessarily connected.
Fair enough, but I'd still say it's a tough workout and probably the kind of thing that will help him bring his 3k PR in line with his 1500m and help him improve his 5k as well. Not saying it's some great "predictor" workout, just that it looks to me like a lot of good, hard work and that I can understand why a coach would want an athlete to do such a workout.