s8n wrote:
What was his fresman/soph/jr high school progression like?
4:22 with pretty much zero training as a frosh (4:31 with LITERALLY zero training at the start of that season), 15:14 cross country as a soph, I think meniscus tear to keep him out of a junior season, then of course... 4:00/8:34 double as a senior
Ah Letsrun, where the performances of people we like are always worth several seconds faster than the clock reads.
Perspectivation wrote:
Didn't see the races, but it sounds like Wheating won his with a strong finish, meaning he was not at his limit with 3:38 yesterday. He's probably in 3:35 shape or better in a fast 1500.
Not a terrible result for German, although I'd like to see him give the steeple a try.
Great! Math wrote:
4:22 with pretty much zero training as a frosh (4:31 with LITERALLY zero training at the start of that season), 15:14 cross country as a soph, I think meniscus tear to keep him out of a junior season, then of course... 4:00/8:34 double as a senior
You apparently don't know what 'literally' means
osksk wrote:
You apparently don't know what 'literally' means
He played baseball and football an entire fall earlier. Any jogging he did the same week as his first race had nothing to do with improving his time. Did he train in the offseason before he started track, or are you implying someone has to be comatose for their entire life in order for you to comprehend "literally"?
"Not a terrible result for German, although I'd like to see him give the steeple a try."
- this is the equivalent of suggesting someone stick a metal fork into a light socket. I hope you were joking, otherwise you might be the worst person on planet earth to assimilate facts and make suggestions.
Great! Math wrote:
osksk wrote:You apparently don't know what 'literally' means
He played baseball and football an entire fall earlier. Any jogging he did the same week as his first race had nothing to do with improving his time. Did he train in the offseason before he started track, or are you implying someone has to be comatose for their entire life in order for you to comprehend "literally"?
I agree with you. I am all for using words correctly but I see nothing at all wrong with your use of the word 'literally' in your earlier post.
- OFFICIAL ENGRISHMAN STAMP OF APPROVAL -
Er... wrote:
Ah Letsrun, where the performances of people we like are always worth several seconds faster than the clock reads.
Where your dreams become reality...
It's not bad considering where he's been the last few years. Hard to believe he ran 3:55, 7:47, and 13:25(?) as a true freshman in college so many years ago, but sitting out as much as he has can really slow a person down. 13:47 isn't very fast, but it's still very early, and I doubt German is anywhere near peak form. He'll probably be 20 seconds faster in a few weeks. The guy still potentially has a decade of running ahead of him. No need for concern just yet.
OK, I got to witness the whole thing first hand. I'll try to do this from memory without looking anything up.
Frosh - No XC, Track came out after basketball, first race was a 1200 on a DMR. His team set the FS meet record which still stands today. That was, I believe, in his first week. 2 Weeks later is when he ran his 4:31 at the Stanislaus County Meet (mid march). I don't remember much of the rest of that season, but he did finish with a 4:22 for 4th place at the Sac Joaquin Section Meet.
Soph - Wasn't going to run XC, but the coach convinced him to come out just prior to the start of the season, so no base. He ran a number of solid races that fall, but finished with 15:14 at the D4 state meet. On the day, he was one second slower than AJ Acosta and faster than Michael Coe (Who went on to go 1-2 at FLN that year. Ran FLW but got dropped on poop out at Mt. SAC (we live in a very flat area). Joined JV basketball team at seasons end, tore meniscus. The tear went undiagnosed. Most of his season was a series of 3 weeks off, come back to running for a week or so, then 3 more weeks off. He still managed to win the 1600-800-3200 triple at our league meet. The next week, he had Arthroscopic surgery.
Jr. - Did not resume running again until late october, only about 2 weeks prior to our league finals race. Won league finals, went on to finish 2nd at state D4 with a 15:37. During the winter, he decided to train for running during the winter. Got a pretty good base built. On superbowl sunday, he decided to run the Davis Stampede 1/2 marathon with his girlfriend as a tempo run. Although his first mile was slower than 6 min, he decides to pick it up. At 10 miles, he caught the leader and went on to win in, I believe, 1:09. Soon thereafter, he developed some sort of lower leg ailment, maybe a stress reaction, maybe really bad shin splints, but it kept him on the bike for a good chunk of the season. Gets healthy enough for the end of the season where he ran 9:13 to win our section meet, then came back with I think a 9:08 at state (perhaps for 2nd). He then finished up with a 4:13 at Golden West.
Sr. - Since he had missed so much time during JR. year, he didn't take much time off after track and began the buildup for his final CC season. The stretch between the end of his Junior year and the end of his freshman year at OK state was probably the longest uninterrupted stretch of running he has ever had, and was when he did most of his best running. That fall, he opened up the season with a mid 14:40s effort on our league course and proceded to have one of the best cross country seasons in CA history. He finished off the fall with a course record at Woodward Park, crushing the meet record, held by Mark Davis (who competed in the finals of the 1996 Olympic Steeple). He also smashed the times of guys like Meb, and Hall. Easily won at FLW, but only finished 3rd at FLN (starting what would be a pretty typical cycle of fan adulation and then bashing on these and other message boards). During track, he had some very good results along the way to his 4:00/8:34 double at state. Probably the most impressive was a quadruple at a very low key meet in mid march (I'm going to pause to look up the times on athletic.net now) 4:21.18, 1:58.4, 8:53.6, then splitting 52.x on the relay less than 15 min later. At our league finals he put up a 4:14, 1:55, 9:09 triple on a hot day on a dirt track. He didn't get a lot of love nationwide for most of the season, because most of the meets he put up fast times in were pretty small time. For instance, he skipped Arcadia after coming back from World Cross with a slight tweak in his ankle or lower leg or something.
So, yeah....I've been an admirer for a while. The Riverbank coaches and I have always gotten along well. His coach at the time, Bruce Edwards, was always very forthcoming with anyone who was curious about German's training and racing plans.
Sorry, that last post was supposed to be in response to the question about his HS progression.
Are there any threads on here that show how German went from a kid who couldn't break 9 min for 3200m as a high school junior, to running 8:31 the next year?
yesstiles wrote:
Are there any threads on here that show how German went from a kid who couldn't break 9 min for 3200m as a high school junior, to running 8:31 the next year?
He had never trained seriously until after his junior year and still ran very fast times up to that point. This is a guy who did little offseason running and his inseason mileage prior to junior year was nowhere near that of your typical national elite ... so combine incredible talent with a sustained period of injury-free legit training (still only ~60mpw) and that's what you get.
CoachB wrote:
OK, I got to witness the whole thing first hand. I'll try to do this from memory without looking anything up.
Frosh - No XC, Track came out after basketball, first race was a 1200 on a DMR. His team set the FS meet record which still stands today. That was, I believe, in his first week. 2 Weeks later is when he ran his 4:31 at the Stanislaus County Meet (mid march). I don't remember much of the rest of that season, but he did finish with a 4:22 for 4th place at the Sac Joaquin Section Meet.
Soph - Wasn't going to run XC, but the coach convinced him to come out just prior to the start of the season, so no base. He ran a number of solid races that fall, but finished with 15:14 at the D4 state meet. On the day, he was one second slower than AJ Acosta and faster than Michael Coe (Who went on to go 1-2 at FLN that year. Ran FLW but got dropped on poop out at Mt. SAC (we live in a very flat area). Joined JV basketball team at seasons end, tore meniscus. The tear went undiagnosed. Most of his season was a series of 3 weeks off, come back to running for a week or so, then 3 more weeks off. He still managed to win the 1600-800-3200 triple at our league meet. The next week, he had Arthroscopic surgery.
Jr. - Did not resume running again until late october, only about 2 weeks prior to our league finals race. Won league finals, went on to finish 2nd at state D4 with a 15:37. During the winter, he decided to train for running during the winter. Got a pretty good base built. On superbowl sunday, he decided to run the Davis Stampede 1/2 marathon with his girlfriend as a tempo run. Although his first mile was slower than 6 min, he decides to pick it up. At 10 miles, he caught the leader and went on to win in, I believe, 1:09. Soon thereafter, he developed some sort of lower leg ailment, maybe a stress reaction, maybe really bad shin splints, but it kept him on the bike for a good chunk of the season. Gets healthy enough for the end of the season where he ran 9:13 to win our section meet, then came back with I think a 9:08 at state (perhaps for 2nd). He then finished up with a 4:13 at Golden West.
Sr. - Since he had missed so much time during JR. year, he didn't take much time off after track and began the buildup for his final CC season. The stretch between the end of his Junior year and the end of his freshman year at OK state was probably the longest uninterrupted stretch of running he has ever had, and was when he did most of his best running. That fall, he opened up the season with a mid 14:40s effort on our league course and proceded to have one of the best cross country seasons in CA history. He finished off the fall with a course record at Woodward Park, crushing the meet record, held by Mark Davis (who competed in the finals of the 1996 Olympic Steeple). He also smashed the times of guys like Meb, and Hall. Easily won at FLW, but only finished 3rd at FLN (starting what would be a pretty typical cycle of fan adulation and then bashing on these and other message boards). During track, he had some very good results along the way to his 4:00/8:34 double at state. Probably the most impressive was a quadruple at a very low key meet in mid march (I'm going to pause to look up the times on athletic.net now) 4:21.18, 1:58.4, 8:53.6, then splitting 52.x on the relay less than 15 min later. At our league finals he put up a 4:14, 1:55, 9:09 triple on a hot day on a dirt track. He didn't get a lot of love nationwide for most of the season, because most of the meets he put up fast times in were pretty small time. For instance, he skipped Arcadia after coming back from World Cross with a slight tweak in his ankle or lower leg or something.
So, yeah....I've been an admirer for a while. The Riverbank coaches and I have always gotten along well. His coach at the time, Bruce Edwards, was always very forthcoming with anyone who was curious about German's training and racing plans.
Thank you for the thoughtful post :-)
yesstiles wrote:
Are there any threads on here that show how German went from a kid who couldn\'t break 9 min for 3200m as a high school junior, to running 8:31 the next year?
The state meet where he ran 9:08 went 4:40/4:27. He was injured for months going into that. He is what you call a \"supertalent,\" which is why his career has been so disappointing.
Bruce Edwards was the first and best coach that he's had.
doo doo wrote:
yesstiles wrote:Are there any threads on here that show how German went from a kid who couldn't break 9 min for 3200m as a high school junior, to running 8:31 the next year?
The state meet where he ran 9:08 went 4:40/4:27. He was injured for months going into that. He is what you call a "supertalent," which is why his career has been so disappointing.
He has what David Epstein would call a high baseline level of fitness, which is why he is able to get into good shape so quickly.
Great! Math wrote:4:22 with pretty much zero training as a frosh (4:31 with LITERALLY zero training at the start of that season), 15:14 cross country as a soph, I think meniscus tear to keep him out of a junior season, then of course... 4:00/8:34 double as a senior
How did he get over that meniscus tear? Surgery?
I'll share what's wrong with German's running.
I was his teammate at OSU for 2 years. In high school he ran 40-45 miles per week. He ran basic intervals, pace work, and 4 mile tempo runs.
At OSU, Dave didn't really have a background on German's running. Just knew he was talented , obviously.
At OSU, you decide your mileage, your doubles, how long warmups or cooldowns are and whatever you want to do for extra. The 2-3 workouts a week you do, but everything around that is dependent on whatever the runner wants.
German, without anyone micromanaging his running went 40-45 mpw to 90, instantly. He ran well off it for a year, but after that was never the same again.
I'm assuming Jerry never got a more thorough background on German. However, Jerry does micromanage, just not sure if he knew where Dave messed up.
For German, if he's overwhelmed on the training, no pop, no fast times.
I wish him well, good man, hard worker, just wish he never went to OSU, ironically. He was rushed.
Great! Math wrote:
osksk wrote:You apparently don't know what 'literally' means
He played baseball and football an entire fall earlier. Any jogging he did the same week as his first race had nothing to do with improving his time. Did he train in the offseason before he started track, or are you implying someone has to be comatose for their entire life in order for you to comprehend "literally"?
Baseball, basketball, and football are not "literally" no training. There's plenty in there to provide a good stimulus for middle distance distance running. Does anyone know if he did soccer too?
You don't have to be comatose in order to use the word "literally". I don't know why you can't understand that. Especially in this case. He did at least one sport during the previous semester. That fitness doesn't just disappear and go away. You can't dismiss it like that.