The Precipitous Decline of William & Mary's Men's Program

Tribe Fan wrote:

It seems to me that these criticisms ignore the limited resources that W&M allocates to Men’s XC and Track & Field. The success of a small program like this one is always going to be limited by their ability to attract top-flight athletes. The runners who do chose W&M might respond to the rigors of collegiate training or they might not. Certainly the Women’s program has had great success in recent years. There’s no reason to believe that the Men’s program under Walsh isn’t capable of a similar run. Coach Walsh is extremely knowledgeable and well connected in running circles. He had great success in recruiting and developing fantastic runners at Providence and, over time, no doubt will have similar results at W&M.

A few things that I somewhat respectfully disagree with here. First off, WM has a lot of scholarships available for xc runners. It certainly doesn't have the best facilities, but it really doesn't grossly lack things other SE teams have. I think you're correct about recruiting being difficult at WM, but somehow they did it well enough qualify for nationals 14 years in a row.

I'll explain the main reason why WM girls were so good recently. They got a few stud recruits, one of them Emily Stites, who no one would know how good she would be. But the big reason is that Walsh does not coach the women. Miller runs their practices every single day with close to zero actual coaching interactions with Walsh.

Walsh does however directly coach the guys side of things. If you want to get specific, look at how well the girls did when Walsh directly coached them. Didn't even win conferences. Next year Miller takes complete control and they qualify for nationals. If Walsh had the presence of mind and selflessness to see how far he has pushed WM away from what it once was, there would be a chance he would work out as a director. As it stands the guys team is one the worst full scholarship programs in the SE.

But seriously... if all of the athletes hate him, something is seriously wrong. As a head coach you assume responsibility for your team. You would only need to ask a distance runner there if Walsh was doing a good job and you would have all the knowledge you need to tell him to go coach somewhere else. Maybe he is a good coach, but certainly not at WM. The results speak for themselves.

The W&M administration doomed the Mens Track and Cross programs when they let Gibby walk without even countering the offer he received from Michigan. They never could have matched the offer from a monetary standpoint, however, they could have guaranteed him the directorship when Dan Stimson eventually stepped down (something that just happened). Instead, they hired a coach with little to no discernible personality and even less in the way of motivational capability.

A previous poster noted Walsh's successes at Providence. He did have several athletes run well, however, the fundamental difference is that most of them were Irish professionals who were ready to roll as soon as they got to the NCAA. Coaching 18 and 19 year old athletes who want to understand their training is a far different task and something that Walsh has failed at miserably.

Sure Gibby had his growing pains when he took over from Gerard, but by this point in his tenure the majority of his athletes had bought in and were producing. Bottom line - Walsh needs to go; Miller can retain the women; a new Director and Men's coach should be sought.

Steve Walsh coached me at Providence (I was a walk-on). He didn't coach the blue-chipper men and women - that was Ray Treacy. My impression of Steve was he knew the Xs and Os of distance running and I improved a lot under him. His problem is he isn't the easiest guy to get along with and when things went south he was quick to anger. I am thankful for the time he invested in helping me improve as a runner, but once he left the school I was happy I didn't have to deal with his idiosyncrasies anymore.

With that being said I am really sad to see him not succeeding at W&M. Their captains called me when Gibby left and I gave a glowing review of Steve. I think Steve's underlying problem is he is a control freak. I think he would be better served as being an assistant at a Big 10 school where he can focus on a small group of athletes - most likely men's 800-10k.

In all likelihood Steve is probably lacking the charisma and personality to be the Director of Track and Field and Cross Country at a Division I school. I hope he uses this summer to reevaluate how he interacts with his athletes and possibly take a more hands-off approach.

I think it is more important to look at the decline in xc performances over the years because William and Mary was known for xc and not track.

Regional Performances by William and Mary's top 7:

To continue with our symbolism I will use a * to mark somebody trained or recruited by Gibby.

2007 (Gibby year): 4 16 15 23 26 36 50

3rd as team

2008: 6 9 13 16 22 73 107

1st as team

2009 (Last Year with Gibby: 4 5 9 11 20 29 42

1st as team

2010 (first year with Walsh): 12* 16* 17* 18* 22* 26* 54*

1st as team

2011: 10* 28* 29* 41* 44* 45* 123*

3rd as team and did not qualify

2012: 18* 25* 49* 74* 104 108 125*

8th as a team and did not qualify

2013: 28* 41 44 48* 74 103 180

6th of a team and did not qualify

Part of W&M's success prior to Walsh's arrival was that it was basically run under a consistent methodology that had proven to be successful. A machine to pump out regionally successful Xcode teams was built and maintained. Gerard May have been the originator of this and it was passed on to one of his former athletes, a product of the machine, in Gibby. Gibby did an excellent job of keeping the machine running, he may have even made improvements. Then when Gibby departed for Michigan they hired someone who had never worked with this type of equipment. It is no wonder the machine has broken when Walsh didn't probably know any of its components. He went in his own familiar direction and the machine has been left in a closet to rust.

All of these comments seem to be focused on Steve Walsh as men's distance/XC coach, and there has obviously been a drop-off on that side of things. But lets look at the great things Steve has done as W&M Director of XC/T&F:

- There are now SIX full-time coaches on staff. Prior to his arrival, there were three. This must be some combination of Walsh/administration investing in and trying to create a well-rounded program

- Unprecedented success for the women's XC/distance program. If Miller gets the coaching credit as others have insinuated, that falls under Walsh's umbrella...he hired her and oversees the program. The women's program was 13th in USTFCCCA Program of Year standings

- Growth and improved recruiting in other event areas. The program appears to have improved the talent levels in other event areas. Most prominently in the throws, but also in sprints/jumps and the vault seems to be doing very well.

- Men's and women's outdoor CAA titles in 2013. It may have only been a three team race, but W&M hadn't won a CAA men's title since 2004. Even when the men's distance team was a powerhouse, they struggled to compete for CAA outdoor titles.

I have no horse in the race, but looking at the whole picture of the program, from an outsider's perspective, he hasn't done a bad job (despite the steep decline of men's XC). This is LetsRun, though, so people seem to care only about men's distance, just as I suspect the W&M men's XC alumni probably only care about men's XC performance. Based on this, I think the administration may see his tenure as progress and successful, just as many outsiders may do the same.

That is indeed one way to look at it. Of course, you could also look a bit more closely...when they won the men's CAA title in track in 2013, they lost the meet to George Mason who competed at the meet but was unscored due to the fact that they were on their way out of the CAA. That's right. They would have lost had it been a 4-team meet. They also didn't win this year in a small and watered down field. Is the track team more well-rounded? Absolutely. However, it is more well-rounded with mediocre to poor athletes. William and Mary is never going to compete at a high level as an all-around track program. They don't have the money, facilities, or allure to attract the athletes to become a good program in that manner. This would be like congratulating Iona or Portland on getting a couple of 10.6 sprinters who score in a crappy conference but overall hurt the program because distance specialization is what made the program.

I will not argue that he gets some credit for the success of the girls' program, but, as was already mentioned, Jill Miller took roughly the same squad plus a couple athletes to much greater heights in just one year after taking over for Walsh. Meanwhile the men's program has replaced a stellar distance program with poor non-distance athletes with a mediocre distance program with at best mediocre non-distance athletes. The administration may see progress, but they need an optometrist.

In the 2013 CAA outdoor championship, George Mason had announced their departure from the conference but still ran at the meet. Consequently their points were nulled. They eliminated many of the possible points in the spring events, and W&M won through distance and throws. In 2014, George Mason was gone and the Tribe got spanked by the other two teams: Northeastern and UNCW.

I'd give less credit to Walsh for the 2013 title.

Just a thought.

Also let's dive a bit further here. Their top guy in the 100 failed to break 11 seconds (all data from TFRRS). He would not have been all-state in high school this year for my state which is not exactly a sprint power. The same goes for the 200 of 22.78. No 400 runner broke 50 seconds, and their 1600m relay squad ran 3:24. Distance squads can run that for a lot of schools.

Their top hurdler failed to come within 3 seconds of the NCAA champion. That is over 110 meters.

The top PV guy was not bad in terms of PR although he came in 19th in the meet in which he vaulted 16'11.75. He also no-heighted at IC4A which is their big meet of the season now that they don't qualify anyone for the East Regional. Their next best guy vaulted 15'3. I am not sure how that shows that the pole vault crew seems to be doing very well.

As for jumps, they had one guy high jump over 6 feet at 6'2. This is not good for a high school squad. One guy long jumped over 20 feet at 22. Again, this is in no way good. They had one TJer, and he got 6th in the CAA. Not seeing this solid developing jumps team.

Throws, they had one guy put the shot over 42'. Frenia was solid with a 55' put. He got 23rd at IC4As. That is passable, but there is no one behind him. His hammer throw was OK as well but was just 16th indoors at IC4As. His discus was not that great. They had one solid javelin guy over at 211' although he threw 222' last year. They have no multis guys.

This is not a well-rounded team. They need the distance guys to succeed. That clearly is not happening. Changes need to be made. I am not even saying that Walsh should by no means be the director, but he should step down as head XC/distance coach and let someone who can reach the athletes do the job and see if the Tribe can regain their former glory.

You're mostly correct in this. Walsh is not a terrible director. The beef that most WM distance guys have with him is that he is a terrible distance coach. Why doesn't he just step down as head men's distance coach? That's the real question.

I don't think any of the athletes care if Walsh is director. The problem is that he also tries to coach distance at the same time which, apparently, he cannot do very well. The answer to why he doesn't step down as men's distance coach is because that is where he was hired in the first place. From a personal perspective, he probably still views himself as a distance coach that facilitates the rest of the program. Obviously he sucks at coaching but the personal hit to his pride to completely abandon what he thinks is his forte is too much to handle. Now if he was actually a good person and had his athletes best interests in mind... well we've seen from a previous poster that he obviously doesn't. William and Mary administration needs to either force him to leave or step down as men's distance coach... although that seems unlikely because WM athletic administration is rather lackluster.

- Unprecedented success for the women's XC/distance program. If Miller gets the coaching credit as others have insinuated, that falls under Walsh's umbrella...he hired her and oversees the program. The women's program was 13th in USTFCCCA Program of Year standings

...Miller and Walsh began dating almost immediately, and knew each other from coaching in the NE, so there may have been some selfish motivation behind bringing her in. So maybe not a great example of his directorship abilities

oh brother... wrote:

I can't imagine anyone that has the credentials to obtain a D1 coaching/ director position to have troubles with writing and grammar.

You must have a pretty weak imagination because his grammar and spelling is so atrocious that it would appear he is trying to sound uneducated. For someone in a coaching position it might not be the most significant flaw, but it doesn't reflect well on the program when he emails the entire program alumni network about the biggest meet of the year and misspells "Relays" in the subject line.

a query wrote:

What is the general atmosphere of the William and Mary Athletics department?Are they aware of such a rapid decline in performances? Surely there has to be some pressure from a long list of alumni that have gone through the program to seek change. I realize that transitional periods are to be expected but shouldn't there be some signs of improvement after 3 years or so?

They've been made more than aware of the decline. However, the decline is only one (and I'd say by far not the most) alarming oversight by the department. The consistent and outrageous psychological mistreatment of athletes through mind games and arbitrary power-trip-driven punishments are the reason that of the ten kids who passed through the class of 2014, only two finished up as seniors (neither returning as 5th years) and of the six people he brought in the next year (his first recruiting class) every one of them has quit. They will have exactly 1 senior next year and it is a transfer from UVA who has only been with the program for a year and a half.

No program will have 100% of athletes follow through all four years, and in many cases 50% is not uncommon. But anyone reading this is looking at 2.5/16.5 in the last two years (0.5 for the transfer). These numbers are indicative of an issue not only within the locker room but also of the outlook of the program.

It should be the athletic department's jobs to ensure that their employees are not mentally abusing the student-athletes under their jurisdiction, and having in some cases a significant part of their college experience either ruined or flat out taken from them.

The toxicity that has oozed from Walsh's office into the men's locker room has been brought to the attention of the athletic department by a multitude of athletes for two years now, so it remains to be seen if the department can be trusted with the athletic careers of the 400+ students it oversees.

Like what? Give some concrete examples instead of just making generalizations like this. If it's so bad there has to be examples you can cite.

1. Brings you into small office and teams up on you with 2 other coaches, telling you that your character sucks

2. Yelling at the whole team to start practice everyday because you are not 15 minutes early to practice, doing enough rope stretching, or ice bathing enough. (However he will never give you positive feedback when you do these things)

3. Telling you do not f up up in this race because I stuck my neck out for you to get into the race

4. He neglects certain runners and doesn't give them attention but when they run well he tells them the neglecting was part of his master plan

5. He stores things he thinks you did wrong for days, maybe weeks, and instead of addressing the issue immediately, he waits and uses all the things he thinks you did wrong and uses them all against you at once when he is mad at you.

Why is everyone giving all the credit to Alex Gibby? He's a great coach and a great guy don't get me wrong, but it shows that most of you are young kids on here. If you know anything about W&M, you would know that Andrew Gerard set the stage for W&M. Gerard coached Gibby back in the day and Gibby derived his coaching philosophy from Gerard. Gerard set the foundation for W&M and Gibby just continued where Gerard left off when he went to Stanford.

Needless to say, W&M is complete garbage now. Absolutely garbage. The current AD, Walsh, and co. have managed to destroy a great program. One of the top aspects about both Gerard and Gibby was their familiarity with High Schools in VA, PA, and surrounding areas. It's evident that Walsh doesn't understand the landscape and how to recruit (not that he can do any better coaching). It's very sad to see. Hopefully, someone will wake up in Williamsburg.

Dubious wrote:

Like what? Give some concrete examples instead of just making generalizations like this. If it's so bad there has to be examples you can cite.

1. During a period of turmoil, a few leading seniors scheduled a meeting with Walsh to state the teams' grievances, constructively criticize, and work to improve the atmosphere. Instead of hearing out his leaders, when they arrived Walsh told them he was "f*****g done" with them and to "get the f**k out."

2. Walsh relies on an online log to monitor his athletes' training. He constantly harps on athletes for not completing it on a daily basis. One day before practice, he confronted the team because the majority of them had not completed it. Unknown to him, the log was failing and accounts were deleted. The team said they couldn't complete it because the log was down. After finding himself in the wrong, Walsh insecurely freaked out. A sophomore asked what he should run today and Walsh replied, "I don't know, my s**t was down!" He then stormed out of the locker room leaving the team without any plan for the day.

3. At the Colonial Relays, the teams biggest home meet and fundraiser, the marquee distance relay is the 4x1500. It is a William and Mary team goal to perform well. Two athletes who had raced the day before were battling injuries but on the 'A' team. Walsh asked if they felt ready to race. Giving an honest answer, the athletes said they were concerned about their injuries but would race if need be. Walsh asked again if they thought they should race, and they replied that they didn't think so. Walsh proceeded to blow up at the athletes in the middle of the track and tell them to tell the alumni why we wouldn't be racing an 'A' 4x1500 team.

4. Walsh does a great job of getting athletes into races they have not qualified for. He has great networking skills and knows how to pull strings. To an athlete who he had been bumped to a faster heat, Walsh gave this prerace advice, "I put my neck on the line for you, don't f**k up."

These come from personal experience and direct sources.

It's obvious from the responses in this thread and my own experience in being coached by Steve that he is very knowledgeable about track and field and distance running in particular but does not possess the interpersonal skills requisite for being a great coach. Where Steve falls short is in his ability to LISTEN to his athletes when they voice concerns. I can't tell you how many times I tried to talk to Steve about my training and bounce ideas off of him and he simply brushed them off or made no apparent effort to even listen to the words coming out of my mouth.

I feel for the guy because, as others have said, he does have a passion for the sport and I would have liked to see him succeed. But until he's able to learn to treat his athletes with a modicum of respect, I suspect we'll be seeing results comparable to the ones we've seen the last 3 - 4 years.

Isn't John Jefferson an assistant coach there now? Does he do anything there besides add to his instagram portfolio?