Ryun - Brief Vid of Dusseldorf '67 : 11.6 / 36.5 ( incomplete ) finish now on Youtube

webbmaster is back wrote:

Aouita did not run 36.1 for his last 300 in a 3:34 race. Much as he did not run 11.6 or whatever it was for his last 100 against Cram.

Why are you writing that Aouita hasn't run 36,1 in the '84 Grossetto race (which he won in 3:34,82)? Giving the impression you actually know exactly what has happened. Have you seen the race? And analyced it carefully?

I have never seen the race, but the last 300m was reported to be 36,14. I'm sceptical about this (and was even more before I saw the Ryun Düsseldorf race). But I really want to know what has happened and therefore I try to get the video of the race.

So far - it seems - nobody from this forum has seen the race and to talk about something like fact without really knowing anything about it is not very intelligent.

To some other poster in this thread: I thought I have made it very clear, that there IS an running clock on the full '67 Düsseldorf race (which (as it seems) comes from the live coverage of the meeting. The clip from "Das Bundesarchiv" probably was shown in some television news.

ISBN wrote:I said Coe ran several sub 12 last 100m. I never stipulated that they were in a sub 3:39 1500. They were in 1:46/1:47 800's, which are roughly worth around 3:40 for 1500

offer them

then show the dirt track

Aouita did run a 36.1 last 200 in a 3:34 race. Your denial of that is just a lie or lack of knowledge.

drivel

offer 400/800/1200 splits

Hey thanks for posting that.

Quite a burst! Totally jammin' like a machine.

Better than Ovett's legendary '77 kick against Walker in the World Cup to say the least.

Jim Ryun is the reason I wanted to run the mile when I was a kid. A real hero of mine, so happy to see this.

You are all making measurements of a segment of film that has been cut and spliced together, which is ludicrous.

Show an UNCUT segment of the segment in question and then maybe it will mean something, assuming

1) you can demonstrate that the timing has not been altered in the conversion from 24fps film to an unknown framerate in any number of intermediary digital formats before the 30fps video on youtube,

2) you can prove that the video player you're using to hand-time the segment is playing it back at the right speed,

3) that the dirt track which makes this performance impress you so much was not, in fact, short. Good luck proving something like that about a primitive track that doubtless no longer exists, and

4) for the 11.6, you'll need a very persuasive argument that either they didn't feel like drawing the end of the 3rd exchange on the straight, or that the zones end 100m from the finish line. Otherwise logic would suggest that this is a short-straight track and that you are all agog over an 11.6 90m. Which makes much more sense considering Ryun's relaxed arms and casual look backwards, not to mention easing up at the line... not even in full sprint mode...

I encourage you to try to prove all these things because it will make you look stupid, which I will enjoy very much.

I am a huge Aouita fan. I had his picture on my high school track locker.

I recall how much excitement he brought to middle distance running that began for me watching him in the 1983 World 1500. Literally the only runner in the final I did not know of. In those days milers were big names. Cram, Scott, Ovett, Walker, Flynn, Boit.

Aouita was covered by the track media then as a phenom like Henry Rono but I doubt the accuracy of the the 36.1 last 300 but it was written in the articles I read then. Especially the piece Craig Masback wrote for "The Runner" in 1985.

Supposedly he ran 8:10 for 3000 as an 18 year old in soccer cleats on a grass track with no distance training.

The 36.1 was mentioned as well as the 11.5 the last 100 in the race he barely lost to Cram when they were the first to break 3:30 for 1500. Which has been proven not legit.

I still consider the kick the Kenyan at Pre 5000 (Abraham Chebi?) one year in a 13:08 in 50.8 the greatest kick I've ever heard of and can trust.

ISBN wrote:He said either 36.5 or 36.6. He then came up with a probable 36.54! Which seems rather bizarre considering there was no onscreen clock and was his own hand timing! Given this and the fact that hand timing is usually 1 or 2 tenths faster than electronic timing. So I think 36.6 is more than reasonable.

moron

he said his dvd had running clock

Bad Wigins wrote:for the 11.6, you'll need a very persuasive argument that either they didn't feel like drawing the end of the 3rd exchange on the straight, or that the zones end 100m from the finish line. Otherwise logic would suggest that this is a short-straight track and that you are all agog over an 11.6 90m. Which makes much more sense considering Ryun's relaxed arms and casual look backwards, not to mention easing up at the line... not even in full sprint mode...

I encourage you to try to prove all these things because it will make you look stupid, which I will enjoy very much.

moron

they slapped a synthetic track on for greatest meet of '70s

If a full video becomes available and the running time of the full race corresponds to the reported finish time, the phantom format conversion issues kind of go away. One poster even suggests that we will get the running clock from the original live coverage.

Suggesting that the Germans (you know, the folks who make Mercedes) wouldn't know how to measure a track in 1967 does nothing but make you look rather desperate.

You should be a Ryun fan. Very tall guy. Does it bother you that he was also a miler/two-miler and you think 800 guys should specialize? Hmmmmm?

I'm serious Ventolin, what is it with your typing. We get your Mathematical reasoning and logic, we understand the gist of it, but

moron

drivel

etc ...

Do you intentionally try to put zero effort into your type?

Make us feel dumber?

Is annoys me to no limit how I agree with what you say but you type as if you can only use your pinkie under a time constraint.

This probably won't be answered by me so can anyone else please explain?

ISBN wrote:

Thought video analysis by guy with full race video showed last 200 was 24.8 and last 300 was 36.6?

That would mean the back straight was 11.8 not 11.6. And this was all done with a stop watch as there was no on screen clock, so even 11.8 is a somewhat vague figure. All we can get from that video is that Ryun had a kgreat turn of speed against runners who were nowhere as good as him. No different to what Snell, Coe, Ovett, Aouita, Morceli have done in different paced races at different points over the last lap. They all threw down 100 m bursts in about 12 secs flat.

Even dear old Webb threw down a 12.1 against a top field, though that was earlier in the race (800 - 900)...

"...nowhere near as good as him". This might be correct going purely off the watch BUT both Norpoth and Tummler were considered to be fearsome last lap kickers. Their strategy in this race was clearly to take it to Ryun in the last 300 - before Ryun explodes you can clearly see Tummler accelerate. Whatever the exact time for Ryun's last 300 (something we will probably never know for certain) surely anyone with an appreciation of middle distance running can accept that on that day Ryun did something pretty remarkable and instead of trying to talk down this effort we should simply accept that in this race (and his 1500WR against Keino) we saw one of the best milers ever at the very peak of his form. Ryun never came close to repeating his form of 1966/67 -but what a magnificent couple of years!!

mark b wrote:

"...nowhere near as good as him". This might be correct going purely off the watch BUT both Norpoth and Tummler were considered to be fearsome last lap kickers. Their strategy in this race was clearly to take it to Ryun in the last 300 - before Ryun explodes you can clearly see Tummler accelerate. Whatever the exact time for Ryun's last 300 (something we will probably never know for certain) surely anyone with an appreciation of middle distance running can accept that on that day Ryun did something pretty remarkable and instead of trying to talk down this effort we should simply accept that in this race (and his 1500WR against Keino) we saw one of the best milers ever at the very peak of his form. Ryun never came close to repeating his form of 1966/67 -but what a magnificent couple of years!!

Not at all. Where have I said in this thread that I don't think Ryun was one of the greatest milers ever? Of course he is, if simply based on the fact he held both 1500 and Mile world records.

I am simply pointing out the ridiculous claims by Ventolin and his several other handles on this thread alone, that Ryun was so much better than any of the other greats based on a 100m stretch which is almost impossible to time accurately without a clear view of the 200m line.

Ventolin can claim that no one else ran a last 300m in a 3:38 with a sub 12 100m stretch. That doesn't mean that others couldn't in the same circumstances. Give some of the other greats the exact same pace and tell them to go all out with 300 to go and hold it as long as possible, and I have no doubt they would all produce something similar.

In fact we have a reported last 300 of 36.14 by Aouita in a faster 3:34 race. Of course I would like to see this race to confirm its validity, just as I would like to see all of Ryun's race with an on screen clock and clear visibility of the 100m segments.

The other point I was making is that you can take specific splits from the greats and also claim that no one else did it.

E.g Aouita last 300 in 36.1

Cram's last 200 in 25.5 in a 3:46 mile

Ovett's 11.8 curve with 200m to go in a 3:34 race

Coe's 12.1 last 100 in an Olympic final or 12.5 in a 3:32

None of the above have been achieved by Ryun either. So by Ventolin's reasoning, if Ryun didn't do it then he wasn't capable of doing it and thus was not as good as those other athletes. But of course he will claim otherwise as he is a hypocrite. There are endless permeatations of how a 1500 race is run and practically impossible to have the exact same pace and breakdown of splits in any 2 races.

drivel

you can't seem to read

the owner of dvd says he has race with running clock

he's analysed it & says 11.6/36.5

more nonsense

it's not a claim

it is fact

where are they ???

drivel

where are these 3'38s with 11.6/36.5 ???

no one gives a damn whether you have seen it

the owner of dvd has said there is a running clock & he has given splits

with 53+ finish

with a 54+ finish

no

it was 12.2

his last 300m in a 3'38.4 was a rubbish 38.7

nowhere close to a 36.5

none of those have a 11.6 or a 36.5

what is this drivel ???

more drivel

utter drivel

fetch me another 11.6/36.5 in a 3'38 ???

You're an idiot.

Go fetch me a last 100 from Ryun in 12.5 in a 3:32 race! You can't because he never ran that fast.

Go fetch a 36.1 last 300 in a 3:34 race or even a last lap in 53 flat in a 3:46 mile for Ryun!

Ryun's penultimate lap in Dusseldorf was a slow 60 secs. Coe's previous 400 up to 1200 was 54 and bits. Completely different. Where is Ryun's 54 followed by a 38 and a last 100 of 12.1?

ISBN wrote:

Go fetch a 36.1 last 300 in a 3:34 race . . .

This is the way the assertion about Aouita at Grosetto '84 first appeared on this message board;

"At 1500

Said Aouita Grosseto 84 300 in 36 for 3:34.81

Sebastian Coe OG 84 400 in 53.0 for 3:32.53

Steve Cram and Jose-Luis Gonzalez in the 1987 European Cup

400 in 49.9 for 3:45.5

Abdi Bile, Sebastian Coe and Jens-Peter Herold in the 1989 World Cup

300 in 37.7/37.8 for 3:35.57/3:35.7

Nourredine Morceli WC91 400 in 51.4 for 3:32.85

Nourredine Morceli WC93 400 in 50.6 for 3:34.23

Cacho's was 50.5 or 50.2?(3:40.12),

Aouita 51.7 (3:29.71),

Ryun 50.6 (3:38.2),

El G 53.1(3:26.00)"

Read more:

As you can see, no tenths are given for Aouita/Grosetto, just "36".

The alterations to 36.1 and then to 36.14 that you reiterate are simply message board evolutions where people who wanted this to be true realized it didn't sound precise enough.

And even the original assertion of the unadorned "36" came with no backup from a contemporary account.

In terms of credibility, no comparison to Dusseldorf, where there were a number of contemporary accounts and now a freely available video.

If that 37.8 for Coe in the 1989 World Cup at the end of his career is correct, pretty sure he could have managed a similar (or better) last 300 to Ryun during his peak 8 years earlier. Didn't he allegedly run 11.3 in the last 100 of an 800? Who has run near that?

marcus t wrote:

If that 37.8 for Coe in the 1989 World Cup at the end of his career is correct, pretty sure he could have managed a similar (or better) last 300 to Ryun during his peak 8 years earlier. Didn't he allegedly run 11.3 in the last 100 of an 800? Who has run near that?

Coe didn't do that on a dirt track.

And the 11.3 you refer to was in an incredibly slow 800, something like 1:47.xx

supercut wrote:

As you can see, no tenths are given for Aouita/Grosetto, just "36".

The alterations to 36.1 and then to 36.14 that you reiterate are simply message board evolutions where people who wanted this to be true realized it didn't sound precise enough.

The 36,14 is not a "message board evolution". This time was reported in the German magazine SPIRIDON.

said88 wrote:

supercut wrote:

As you can see, no tenths are given for Aouita/Grosetto, just "36".

The alterations to 36.1 and then to 36.14 that you reiterate are simply message board evolutions where people who wanted this to be true realized it didn't sound precise enough.

The 36,14 is not a "message board evolution". This time was reported in the German magazine SPIRIDON.

Can you quote from the article in broader context to demonstrate this?

And, in any event, now that you mention it, you yourself have said that you don't believe this split is accurate, so what's the point, really?

For one thing, the alleged article was not contemporary to the Grosseto race but a number of years after. Again, nothing like Dusseldorf.