A Discussion of Jack Daniels Training for 5k/10k

This brings up an interesting point in my mind, which, although somewhat unrelated to Daniels specifically, I feel can be connected. I will start off by saying that I have no formal education past high school in biology or physiology, etc., but have spent a significant amount of time researching the topics online.

The way I have always viewed a "finishing kick" is that, yes, it is using a different energy system, but given that it is all within one body, they are connected. I'll given an example to explain what I mean by this. Two runners are racing a 5k on the track. They run together for the first 4800m of the race. Let's say they run that 4.8k at 5:00/mile. One of the runners is very strong aerobically, but has very little speed, with a 400m pr of 57. The other runner is not as strong aerobically, but has a 400m pr of 52. 4.8k at 5:00 fatigues the less-aerobically strong runner more, and let's say he is only able to run the final 400m of the race at 80% of his max 400m speed (this means 65 seconds). Meanwhile, although the other runner is slower in terms of pure 400m speed, he is stronger aerobically, and is able to run 90% of his max 400m speed (this means 63 seconds). A slower earlier pace may have allowed the 52 second runner to close in 58 (90% of max 400m speed), but that would come at the expense of the total time.

Again, I might be off-base with my theory of how finishing speed works, and would much appreciate others input here. I tend to think it goes inline with "strength is speed" argument that is posted on LRC often. I do agree that true sprinting should be worked on, because if in my scenario, you put two runners with equal sprinting ability instead of a significant mismatch, then it comes down to strength.

1a. The only time I have done more than 4 weeks of "pure base" is when I was recovering from injury.

1b. I don't think there is anything "detrimental" about running low key races as long as you keep up with the volume. If you replace a scheduled 60 minutes easy run with a 5K race, that reduces the total volume for that day. But you can do either an extended cool down after the race, or a second run later in the day. On the other hand, I don't think there is any physiological benefit, either.

3b. The question is what physiological benefits does one gain from more mileage at E pace or a faster E pace? And what benefits does one lose by cutting down the number of Q sessions? I think it depends on a runner's current strength and weakness. And it also depends on what one wants to improve.

Interestingly enough, in the 3rd edition, one of the workouts for 5/10K program is a long run at E pace or E/M mixed pace. So that leaves only two days per week for R/I/T pace workouts.

RunWild wrote:

I wonder if runners would be better off compounding some of the workouts and keeping Q3 alive. For instance, one week they can compound repetitions after their tempo and interval runs and another week, compound the tempo run with intervals as well as compound the interval days with repetitions.

I think the answer is yes. By "dropping Q3" I only meant doing two quality workouts a week. It does not have to be retaining Q1 and Q2 in their original forms.

Actually, Daniels' plans already have those "compounded" Q days. I had not read the 5/10K plan in the 3rd edition closely until I saw this thread, since my current focus is on half and marathon. But I think it is worth taking a look, since it is significantly different from the 5-15K plan in the 2nd edition.

I'm doing the 40-50 mile per week 5k plan and had my first workout of Phase III yesterday.

Why does he put two quality sessions back to back?

For example, yesterday was 4x1200m and today is 4x 1 mile T run.

For me, that is too much. I need at least a day in between workouts. I may even do Tuesday and Friday workouts.

what is the purpose of back-to-back? Is it to get you doing workouts on tired legs?

litterbug wrote:

I'm doing the 40-50 mile per week 5k plan and had my first workout of Phase III yesterday.

Why does he put two quality sessions back to back?

For example, yesterday was 4x1200m and today is 4x 1 mile T run.

For me, that is too much. I need at least a day in between workouts. I may even do Tuesday and Friday workouts.

what is the purpose of back-to-back? Is it to get you doing workouts on tired legs?

He explains your question in the book. He did this with HS athletes, to make sure they didn't run the first workout too fast, because they know what will be coming the next day.

But it's fine to take a recovery day in between.

Devoted Daniels acolyte here, but a few notes on the third edition.

First, let me issue this disclaimer: I haven't read it. But I have read enough on these boards to pick up on a few things that bother me about the 3rd edition.

First, I understand that he goes away from straight 20 minute tempo runs exclusively (or almost exclusively) in favor of cruise intervals. I assume he does this to reduce the physical and mental stress associated with tempo runs, but the mental stress is one of the things he emphasized in previous editions as a benefit, and I agree with him there. Few things can prepare you for the pain that comes at the end of a 5000m race, and the discomfort that comes at the end of a 20 minute tempo run is one of those few things. It really forces you to focus on pace and effort while fatigued. I cannot overstate how invaluable that has been to me over time.

Second, he dropped the table from the 2nd edition that helped figure out how much to slow down to go from 20 minute tempo runs to longer runs. Presumably he did this in connection with the previous point. While this in and of itself is not a big deal for 5k/10k training, I think that 30+ minute tempo runs are great for half marathon training for many of the reasons that I mentioned above.

Third, he has added in marathon pace running a lot more for non-marathon distances. This confuses me since it falls squarely in the "junk miles" category described in previous editions. The only way I see that being useful based on his previous editions is if it is being used for an extended period, essentially replacing the long tempo runs described above.

Finally, this idea of back-to-back workouts. I do think there is value there for folks who have to run heats before a finals or who might double in a meet. And while it is not in previous editions of his training plans, I know my college coach (also a Daniels devotee) occasionally had us do this, so it may not be a brand new concept for him, but it does seem to be contrary to his position on recovery.

I honestly have to wonder if these changes are the result of new research, or if they are being done to accommodate current trends in training and keep Daniels relevant and to justify a new edition, all in an effort to keep selling a book. Based on Daniels' age, I suspect that it is more likely that he is just staying relevant than he is doing new research that is resulting in modifications to his prior approaches.

I feel dirty for blaspheming with respect to Daniels, but I had to get that off of my chest.

I must confess to not know much about Daniel's training but surely a tempo run shouldn't feel anything remotely like the end of a 5000m race? That's not training, that's racing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that just sounds way too hard. Tempo's should be blissful, controlled, relaxed running where you feel lighter than air. The end of a 5k is anything but that.

litterbug wrote:

I'm doing the 40-50 mile per week 5k plan and had my first workout of Phase III yesterday.

Why does he put two quality sessions back to back?

For example, yesterday was 4x1200m and today is 4x 1 mile T run.

For me, that is too much. I need at least a day in between workouts. I may even do Tuesday and Friday workouts.

what is the purpose of back-to-back? Is it to get you doing workouts on tired legs?

The back to back workouts are to keep you honest. Took me one week to learn the hidden value of what he was trying to get across. You absolutely can do a speed day followed by a tempo day. If you can't you're either at a vdot you're not capable of or you came into the program not ready.

I get why you'd think that, but tempo pace has always been challenging for me. I run at prescribed pace and subjective effort level (I can get a sentence out but can't maintain a conversation), it is just a real drag for me by the end. It isn't as hard as a 5k, but it taxes me enough to make me really have to concentrate on maintaining pace the last 5-6 minutes. That kind of mental energy expenditure does parallel the end of a 5k.

Smoove wrote:

I get why you'd think that, but tempo pace has always been challenging for me. I run at prescribed pace and subjective effort level (I can get a sentence out but can't maintain a conversation), it is just a real drag for me by the end. It isn't as hard as a 5k, but it taxes me enough to make me really have to concentrate on maintaining pace the last 5-6 minutes. That kind of mental energy expenditure does parallel the end of a 5k.

Last 5-6 minutes? You said the workout was mile repeats at T pace. That shouldn't be hard.

The last 5-6 minutes of a straight 20 minute tempo run, not of cruise intervals. Cruise intervals don't really hurt that much.

litterbug wrote:

I'm doing the 40-50 mile per week 5k plan and had my first workout of Phase III yesterday.

Why does he put two quality sessions back to back?

For example, yesterday was 4x1200m and today is 4x 1 mile T run.

For me, that is too much. I need at least a day in between workouts. I may even do Tuesday and Friday workouts.

what is the purpose of back-to-back? Is it to get you doing workouts on tired legs?

One other thing to add is make sure you are running super easy conversational pace on your easy days. If you're not doing this it's no wonder you may be struggling in the first week. I often ran slower than his suggestive easy pace, i took it as the run was to be very easy and knew i needed my strength for the days it mattered (Q1,Q2,Q3) so my easy days were very easy. I hit paces no problems on the heavier training days. By the end of my program I bumped up about 3 vdots higher than I started. Be patient and listen to your body. Phase 3 was prewarned to be the hardest, thats why you should have a solid base or had started in Phase 2 at minimum if you didn't have a good base. Good luck to you.

Smoove- I'm a follower of the 40-50mpw 5k plan. In the new edition, you get one 20 minute tempo in phase II and two phases III/IV. I agree that the mental benefit of the old fashioned tempo is really valuable. You get an M run in place of the long run every third week in phase II and they alternate every other week in phase III. I think they disappear in phase IV. These runs are really beneficial to me, as I'm aerobically underdeveloped. I dread those M runs more than 5x1200 I paced or 10x400 R paced runs. I'm very tired after 8-10 miles at my M pace. The mental benefit is similar to that of the steady tempo for me.

According to Lydiard there are leg speed workouts (strides and hills) and there are speed workouts (such as 10 x 200 or 10 x 400). The latter would seem to be Daniels phase two work.