"Is Khalid Khannouchi the best marathoner ever?"

The best ever is someone who wins the most competitive races in the world. For most track events, that's the olympics. For the marathon, it used to be the olympics. But since the surge in prize money at big city marathons, they are arguably the most competitive races in the world. Khannouchi has beaten some very classy fields in London and Chicago in wr times over a five year period. That at least gives him some consideration for the best ever. Do six big city wins, including one of the greatest races ever (London 02) equate to Bikila's accomplishment of winning back to back golds in 60 and 64? That's debatable, but clearly the olympics are just not as important as they used to be for marathoners.

brettnsuzy wrote:

Uh Flagpole...EVERYTIME KK went head to head with Tergat he spanked him. Of course, no way of knowing what would have happened at Berlin, but based off of Tergat, Korir and Espinosa's performances, it was a VERY fast day, and I have no doubt that KK would have been in the mix. Chicago could be interesting...the thing about WRs is the weather plays such a large role. KK would have been sub 2:05 if it wasn't for the winds last time out. Shoulda, coulda, etc. I'll be honest, I doubt will see Tergat and KK go head to head again.

Yeah, well, woulda coulda shoulda. Tergat was not as good as KK when KK beat him and set those records. Once Tergat did set the world record though, he became the best. Different courses, schmifferent courses. I don't care about that. They can all pick a fast one, and Tergat has the WR and was a stud even before that.

Tergat wins.

SCOREBOARD!!

Flagpole Willy wrote:

Tergat wins.

SCOREBOARD!!

Scoreboard to me means - you'll never guess it - head-to-head competition, not time trials.

We've been down this pathway before Flaggy,

The SCOREBOARD says: KHANNOUCHI!!!!

ukresident wrote:

The rest of the (non-american) world would be happier if the USA had any decent sort of out of season testing. Things might be on the change now, but for a long time you have not had a system worth talking about. This just means that non-americans are not as convinced by his performances as they might be. Shame really.

You really do not know what you are talking about at least not since October 1, 2000.

Check out the numbers of tests performed by USADA alone. USATF posts on its website every athlete tested in a quarter (and you can go back several quarters as well). Keep in mind that WADA may also test.

I would put the US drug control against any country. The US, Australia and Norway are probably the three best.

Let's see what Kenya, Ethiopia and Greece are doing. Or how about the former Soviet bloc countries?

luv2run wrote:

I am sure Pound would agree. Not

I'll tell who is going to be the best marathon runner ever, Chamoody.

malmo wrote:

Scoreboard to me means - you'll never guess it - head-to-head competition, not time trials.

We've been down this pathway before Flaggy,

The SCOREBOARD says: KHANNOUCHI!!!!

So Evans Rutto is not as good a marathoner as all the people who beat him before he dipped under 2:05?!

I think KK is a stud and could very well get a WR again or beat Tergat in a head-to-head competition, but it's hardl Tergat's fault that KK didn't line up with him when he set that WR.

You are corrected - the SCOREBOARD says: TERGAT!!!

But you can't go head to head with runners from different eras. So I'll go Khannouchi measured against Tergat. But put me down for Bikilla.

Evans Rutto never dipped under 2:05. Khannouchi is the man. Tergat has only won one freaking marathon. If anything Tergat is a one hit wonder with the marathon. Tergat is a better all around distance runner that KK. But KK is a better marathoner. He is far more consistent at the hardest race to consistent at. Khannouchi at this point is the best marathoner of all time.

Ron Hill or Derek Clayton? Both had comparable times. Hill beat Clayton every time they raced, unless I'm missing a race somewhere. Even so the head to head thing favors Hill. So do you rate Clayton better because of a better time? If time is your criteria, sure.

it is impossible to compare apples to apples here...

KK has been the fastest, most consistent marathoner around. Sure, no golds, but as someone else pointed out, the fields of London, or Chicago have been far more competitive than the Oly Games. He has gone against Tergat, Geb, and a host of others...beaten them all. That is pretty impressive. Can he beat Rutto? Going to be tough, and I also think Koech can run 2:05ish as well. But I remember this board counted him out against Tergat and Geb at London--almost the same situation. KK has been hurt, slower 10K times, etc. But he is always ready when the gun goes off at his goal marathon, and if conditions are right, he can get the WR back. Stay tuned. KK gets my vote. Now if Tergat can be consistent at the marathon, he may soon get the nod...but for now, KK is the greatest marathoner of this era.

Right you are. I meant Sammy Korir. Logic holds true. Is Malmo saying that everyone who beat Sammy Korir is better?

I don't think so. The times are there for a reason.

Tergat is the best.

i think the same people who were voting in the judokai poll are voting in the poll.

the messageboard thread is clearly not in line with the results of the poll???

Flagpole, you sound like a stubborn 10 year old boy who won't let go of some illogical idea he contrived. Khannouchi did not race Tergat in Berlin when he set the WR. However, almost anyone on this board would agree that when they raced in April 2002 at London, Tergat was in his prime. Tergat didn't have the best race of his life, but he was in that window of several years where he was at world record abailty in the marathon. And, Khalid beat him in that head to head match. Malmo is right, head to head is what counts, and Khannouchi is a better marathon runner than Tergat. Ever heard of Ron Clarke. He set a bucnh of world records and ran some fast times in rabbitted races (including taking the 10k record down 40 seconds in a single race) but he couldn't produce at the olympics, and no one considers him one of the best ever. Head to head is what counts.

Sally D,

Your logic is ridiculous.

1) How is it that when I defend my position I'm a "stubborn 10 year old boy" and yet when you defend your position you aren't? Here's a thought - we're both defending the position we believe is true - you just happend to be wrong.

2) Head to head is NOT what counts. That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. One guy could be down that day for whatever reason, or he's on the rise toward his peak in that distance, etc. etc. etc.

3) I have nothing against KK. When he held the world record and this same question came up, I said he was the best because the time said so. We start the clock when the gun goes off for a reason, and we record record times for a reason. The best have the fastest times. Period. Someone could win 10 championships in a row and beat another runner each time, but the moment that other person runs a faster time, regardless of whether the other person was in the race, he is the best. Perhaps not fair, because perhaps it was just the perfect day and perhaps that championship guy would have beaten him on that day, but he wasn't there and he didn't.

4) Tergat holds the world record in the marathon, and so he is the best marathoner in the history of the world. There is no room for debate. Anyone EVER wanting to debate such an issue is trying to be intellectual where it isn't needed. It is easy to see who is the best in any distance - just look at the world record books. The name you see there is the one who is the best.

Of course there's room for debate. The thread asks for "greatest," not "fastest." If it were the latter there would be no room for debate, nor would there be if the two terms were interchangable.

Following the line of reasoning you're using, Alan Webb is a greater miler than Herb Elliott.

It's simple -- find a tape of the 2002 Chicago Marathon, pop it in, and watch the final five miles of the race. That could arguably be one of the deepest fields of all time, and the way that KK dusted off Tergat, El Mouaziz, and the rest of the field shows that when he's on top of his game, he is the best. No one can close like him, although I do think Rutto has that ability.

As far as Tergat goes, I'm a big fan of his and he is one of the greatest RUNNERS of all-time because of his incredible range. That said, given the disappointments and underachievements he has had at 26.2, when it comes to the marathon distance, he could be considered a one-hit wonder (two-hit if you count his time in London,02). Neither he nor Korir will ever approach that time again.

Flagpole, if you ask any world class runners what is their motivation for racing, very few will tell you that its to run fast times and set records. Seb Coe raced to beat people. He said he would have considered his career a failure if he didn't win olympic gold. Steve Ovett- he didn't care about records until seb started setting them- he raced to win races. Would El Gerroudj have been satisfied with his career had he not won in Atlanta last month? What is the ultimate dream for most world class track athletes- to win an olympic gold; setting world records are secondary. Malmo was a world class runner, and he even posted on this thread that head to head competitions are what matter. And yes, you can make an allowance for "a guy being down" as you said, but we already established that Tergat was in excellent form when he raced Khannouchi and both were at or extremeley close to their peaks. Furthermore, your time argument is utterly foolish, as it completely discounts the performances of any great runners from the past. Most people would agree that Emil Zatopek is one of the best distance runners of all time, but since his prs are 13:57 and 28:54, by your logic, there are hundreds of runners today who are greater than him. If you are too ignorant to understand that racing times improve through better shoes, better technology, better training techniques and a host of other factors, then I'm probably just talking to a wall here. Too bad I don't go by your logic, then I'd be on my way to being a greater runner than Emil Zatopek.

Tergat's career record is absolutely awesome. I don't think anyone would argue that he is a better alround runner than Kannouchi.