Good 800 workout?

crete wrote:

honestly, b/c it simulates the horrible pain of an 800. there is no pain like it. my tolerance for it is higher in an actual race.

Fair play. Was going to tell my team to do it w/1 and 8 mins coz that sounds well doable when 'translating' it to my own paces, now going to change it to 2 and 8.

I'm a 10k runner myself so I don't have the ability to force the 800 pain as brutally hard on myself as pure mid-d runners can.

hereforalaugh wrote:

how can it be so difficult? You can do 2x400 at that pace WITHOUT rest, how can 2x(2x400) w/2 and 5min be that tough? Youre only out there at work for about a minute for each effort

It's because he, in contrast to you, has huge balls that he relies on when he races.

thanks for your valuable input d|ckhead.Now go play with the other children

Uncle Balls wrote:

hereforalaugh wrote:

how can it be so difficult? You can do 2x400 at that pace WITHOUT rest, how can 2x(2x400) w/2 and 5min be that tough? Youre only out there at work for about a minute for each effort

It's because he, in contrast to you, has huge balls that he relies on when he races.

Sounds like mental toughness is needed. You certainly can do the 2x(2x400) at 800 race pace with those recoveries. Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Sounds like mental toughness is needed. You certainly can do the 2x(2x400) at 800 race pace with those recoveries. Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

what?? I said it sounds like a workout I'd have no problem handling. In fact I am fairly confident I could do it any day of the week with 1min/5min rest

The 800m is the toughest event in track. It requires the ability to run controlled and strong for the first lap, and be fit enough to go harder in the second lap. Although rarely do we see anyone on the high school or college level run a faster second 400, it is important to be able to push harder on the second lap, and try to run as close to negative splits as possible. Please do not compare a person trying to run sub 2, to what we see on TV in world wide races or high levels in D1.

I'm talking about how the typical high schooler goes out in say 58, and comes back in 1:02. That may be a 2 min 800, but it is not a good 800.

Level of fitness plays a key role. Fit enough, so that "controlled and strong" for the first lap, and "work hard" for the second lap are about the same time.

hereforalaugh wrote:

how can it be so difficult? You can do 2x400 at that pace WITHOUT rest, how can 2x(2x400) w/2 and 5min be that tough? Youre only out there at work for about a minute for each effort

What can I say? 2x(2x400) would be a huge effort for me to do at my 800 PR pace in a workout. Sorry!

Maybe I undertrain? Maybe I over-race? Either way, that would be an absolute killer session for me (on the second set). I'm impressed if others can manage that so easily, and I even wonder if you could race 800 faster than you think :)

crete wrote:

hereforalaugh wrote:

how can it be so difficult? You can do 2x400 at that pace WITHOUT rest, how can 2x(2x400) w/2 and 5min be that tough? Youre only out there at work for about a minute for each effort

honestly, b/c it simulates the horrible pain of an 800. there is no pain like it. my tolerance for it is higher in an actual race.

Exactly!

hereforalaugh wrote:

crete wrote:

honestly, b/c it simulates the horrible pain of an 800. there is no pain like it. my tolerance for it is higher in an actual race.

Fair play. Was going to tell my team to do it w/1 and 8 mins coz that sounds well doable when 'translating' it to my own paces, now going to change it to 2 and 8.

I'm a 10k runner myself so I don't have the ability to force the 800 pain as brutally hard on myself as pure mid-d runners can.

Starting with 1:00/8:00 or 2:00/8:00 makes sense.

I think I could manage it with the 1:00 between intervals and 8:00 rest between sets. It would be good to try, and try to shorten that break.

The second set after just 5:00 is what would get me. But maybe that should tell me something about my weaknesses...

hereforalaugh wrote:

I said it sounds like a workout I'd have no problem handling. In fact I am fairly confident I could do it any day of the week with 1min/5min rest

I don't doubt most of us could do it. I just doubt that it would be the kind of cakewalk you're implying, if your 800 pace is a true representation of what you can do.

I think that most 800 guys and all 400/800 guys would describe this as a near-peak workout. Maybe I'm wrong.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Sounds like mental toughness is needed...Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

Possibly. You start this workout, like most good 800 workouts, knowing you are going to spend some time with the bear on your back, absolutely awash in lactic acid (what I called "the bad place" earlier).

It would definitely be much easier mentally to put down the second 400 in a race than it is to do that third 400 in this workout, even with the breaks. (Keep in mind that I train alone :)

what is the closest someone would do this workout to a peak race? 7 days? 10 days?

young master wrote:

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Sounds like mental toughness is needed...Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

Possibly. You start this workout, like most good 800 workouts, knowing you are going to spend some time with the bear on your back, absolutely awash in lactic acid (what I called "the bad place" earlier).

It would definitely be much easier mentally to put down the second 400 in a race than it is to do that third 400 in this workout, even with the breaks. (Keep in mind that I train alone :)

You basically have to approach the workout like it is a race. Mentally psych yourself up for it, expect it to be hard, embrace the pain. I mean really attach it.

young master wrote:

hereforalaugh wrote:

I said it sounds like a workout I'd have no problem handling. In fact I am fairly confident I could do it any day of the week with 1min/5min rest

I don't doubt most of us could do it. I just doubt that it would be the kind of cakewalk you're implying, if your 800 pace is a true representation of what you can do.

I think that most 800 guys and all 400/800 guys would describe this as a near-peak workout. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think you're right. And the reason I think I wouldn't struggle that much to do it is because I'm a poor 800 runner compared to my 10'000 ability.

So I could run this off of being good at recovering - but I would not be able to keep pushing the pace for another 400 without the rest as I wouldn't be able to work with that amount of lactic acid. Does that make sense?

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Sounds like mental toughness is needed. You certainly can do the 2x(2x400) at 800 race pace with those recoveries. Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

I thnk it has to be something like that. If you can do 3 x 400 with no rest at that speed, then how can it be harder to do 2 of them with 2 mins rest, even if you have a rest and do it again?

It's supposed to be a tough session. It's only double an 800 race in volume, but it forces you to relax and run at that hard pace for a lap 4 times. Great anaerobic workout. If your reps are any further (like a 500), you can only do 1 and need a good rest.

I take it further and say the first one is the first lap, the 4th one is the last lap, and the middle two are the middle 400 - start and finish at the 200 start. Great for race simulation that way.

I'ver seen younger guys on low volume be able to hack it, so a better prepared adult or late teen should be able to handle it.

hereforalaugh wrote:

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Sounds like mental toughness is needed. You certainly can do the 2x(2x400) at 800 race pace with those recoveries. Sounds like you are mentally taking yourself out of it.

what?? I said it sounds like a workout I'd have no problem handling. In fact I am fairly confident I could do it any day of the week with 1min/5min rest

I think Ralph's comment was aimed at someone else.

young master wrote:

hereforalaugh wrote:

how can it be so difficult? You can do 2x400 at that pace WITHOUT rest, how can 2x(2x400) w/2 and 5min be that tough? Youre only out there at work for about a minute for each effort

What can I say? 2x(2x400) would be a huge effort for me to do at my 800 PR pace in a workout. Sorry!

Maybe I undertrain? Maybe I over-race? Either way, that would be an absolute killer session for me (on the second set). I'm impressed if others can manage that so easily, and I even wonder if you could race 800 faster than you think :)

Hang on hang on. No one said it was easy. It's a tough sessions with all those 400s at 800 pace.

However I think it does a lot for the runner with the longer intervals at that speed, and it is also a very good race predictor.

Since I put up that session (2 x 2 x 400 with 2 & 5 min walking recovery) I'd like to address a few of the comments.

Firrstly to 800 advice - this is a tough session. There is no way I would do it within 7 days of an important race. However, I WOULD do it 9-10 days before an important race as the last hard 800 session. You can recover from it in 3-4 days if you don't train too hard in between - I mean you can race an 800 3-4 days later if you want, but not your most important races.

Young master I think it's logically harder for 400/800 types because of their lower fitness levels. However, remember they have a bigger 400-800 differential (their 800 speed is further below their 400 speed) so running the 400s at 6-7 seconds off their 400 speed is easier than a 10km type running them 4-5 seconds off their 400 speed. It works both ways. A 10km trained runner will recover well between intervals and sets, but will really have to be pushing it. A 400/800 runner finds the 800 speed further below their faster speeds, but might struggle with the recoveries.

Also yes, I would treat it as a near peak workout. If you have a 6-week anaerobic phase, and you did a hard 800 session once a week, I'd approach it something like this:

Week 1 - 2 x 6 x 200s [30" walk and 5' jog]

Week 2 - 2-3 x 3 x 300s [1' jog/walk recovery down the straight back to the start, 5-6 mins between sets - useful if there's a wind as you recover into the wind and do good quality with it)

Week 3 - 2 x 2 x 400 [2' & 5']

week 4 - 3 x 500, 5-6 min rest

Take week 5 and 6 where you want (mix in 400/800 sessions or 800/mile sessions, mix up the reps and where on the track you do them) or need to, but I'd go back to that 2 x 2 x 400s as the last session before a bigger race.

I might add I find a session of diagonals every 2-3 weeks during base really useful. By diagonals I mean run the diagonal of a football/soccer field, jog the base line, run the diagonal, jog the sideline. You just keep turning right or left and it works. Do it at close to 800 speed, and try to get up to 20-30 of them (110-125m each). It gets that fast relaxed stride imprinted on your subconscious, and you can click into it as you start on faster work.

Just happened upon this thread. Ran 2x 400, 200 yesterday. 2' rest between reps, 6 minutes in between sets. 55, 27, 55, 27. First race of the year this season. 1500, 3 hours, then 800. I'll let you know. Would hope to be in 1:58ish shape for a fresh 8