Have great respect for HRE, whoever he is. The "needed help getting back to my car" comment really hits home. Rupp may be some kind of superannuated medical phenom but I am not buying it. What's his next post-race workout going to be? 4 X mile in 3:59 and then a 1:48 half?
A lot of us have run 100mpw, raced our hearts out, and had to be swept off the track. Yet, we have also all doubled off of a maximum effort race. Conference anyone? No one is saying that his post-race workout is an all out effort, it is just a workout. It is just more volume. Only 2 miles of intensity for a day isn't very much. Additionally, Salazar said he was "training through" (though debatable). Personally, I always felt like I benefited from post-race workouts, especially if my coach didn't tell me until after the race (for you central governor peeps out there). It is also a nice simulation for championship events with prelims. You dope-eyed muckrakers need a better argument than a post-race workout for any PED allegations to be taken seriously. Rupp is living all of your dreams and you can't handle it.
malmo wrote:
Fetal position frequency? After every race, and perhaps once every 10-15 days or so after a hard training session.
A few years ago I had this discussion with a friend who had just run a race and was partying like a rock star. He brought up the old talent vs hard word canard, and I responded what he is doing only vaguely resembles the effort of world-class athletes. His retort was that he trained 'hard' too. I conceded that may be so, but "look at you right now. You don't look like you just ran a 5 mile XC race to me." He said, "what do you mean?" i said "look, when I was in college, after every single cross country race i ran I was so sick that I had to go back to my room and curl up in bed to recover with a 3 hour nap." Then I asked him, "have you EVER felt that way after a race?" His response was a very quiet "no."
bam bam wrote:Rupp may be some kind of superannuated medical phenom but I am not buying it.
Yes, he doesn't seem very superannuated to me either.
su·per·an·nu·at·ed [soo-per-an-yoo-ey-tid]
adjective
1. retired because of age or infirmity.
2. too old for use, work, service, or a position.
3. antiquated or obsolete: superannuated ideas.
Have to admit, I can't even guess what word you were going for here. Maybe just "super"?
HRE wrote:
I didn't only run marathons. I was absolutely destroyed by pretty much every race I ran. I've had trouble walking back to my car after 5 kms. I had years when we'd be running hard intervals on the track 4-5 times a week. I'm not making any claims about Rupp's post race sessions other than saying they seem incredible to me and evidently they do to many others.
Do you really think Lagat, Geb, or Bekele needed help to get back to their cars after a race? Have you ever noticed they still seem pretty fresh after even a championship race - jogging around the track and conducting inverviews?
That's why they are world class and you and I are not. They can handle the volume and intensity of training that mortals cannot. Yes, I know a lot of people believe it's only because of PEDS, but I'm certainly open to the idea that some people just have extraordinary talent.
bbq chicken wrote:
Do you really think Lagat, Geb, or Bekele needed help to get back to their cars after a race? Have you ever noticed they still seem pretty fresh after even a championship race - jogging around the track and conducting inverviews?
That's why they are world class and you and I are not. They can handle the volume and intensity of training that mortals cannot. Yes, I know a lot of people believe it's only because of PEDS, but I'm certainly open to the idea that some people just have extraordinary talent.
+1
I was a 3:53 1500 guy in college and I did a club summer track meet and I did every event.100 11.8 200 23? 400-51. 800 2:02 1600 4:34 5k 16:32. Meet started at 5p last lap of 5k was 11p. Granted I was no where near rupps ability or did the volume but at the program I ran at in early 2000s I always did this type of stuff. 1 wo I remember was after a pr for 1k. I ran dmr leg 800 and open 1600 and coach had me do 3 mile cut down on the roads 520-500 450s. With 6x200 around 27. Thought he was crazy but I did it We didnt do high volume of 'junk miles". We ran quality year round 3x a week but never ran multiple weeks of anything over 90 miles for distance guys and 65 for md guys like me.
Common, many high school athletes run a 2 mile, 1600m or 800m in the same day all the time. Guess what happens after elite track meets? pretty much every athlete does something after racing, whether its a few sprints, a tempo, or an interval session its something. Obviously Galen has more talent than almost anyone else, but many elite runners can perform solid workouts after racing. What Salazar and Rupp are doing for American/world distance running is amazing, by showing us what hard training really is. Not everyone can handle it but those who can greatly improve.
My original post was in response to the question as to why so many people are "appalled," (OP's word, not mine) by Rupp's post race workout. Essentially my explanation as to why people have this sort of reaction is that given my own condition after an all out race it seems unbelievable to me that anyone could do what he did. Evidently many other experienced runners have a similar view given comments made by guys like Craig Virgin and Familgetti. Malmo's quote from above certainly implies that he wasn't running a lot of hard mile reps after his races but maybe he could do something along those lines after shorter track races.
I did not mention the PED thing. I don't know who is or isn't on PEDs and I'm not going to accuse anyone of that publicly. But I certainly am not going to say PEDs aren't the reason Rupp can do something like this and I can't say whether or not PEDs are or are not part of the reason Lagat, Geb, Bekele are so fresh after championship races because I don't know. But it would be naive for someone not to wonder if that's a factor.
Keep in mind that Rupp's 100+ weeks are all on soft surface, with aquajogging, massage, cryotherapy an whatever other gadgetry they currently use to recover (plus probably naps like most pros do).
I noticed that his finishing kick started really improving after AS had him race 800m in 1:50 (all-out for him at the time) then go outside (UW stadium) and run a tempo session. This was midway through his college career, so he is experienced at this post-race stuff and certainly has worked up to it.
No one has mentioned the very impressive session that Cam Levins cranked out after his 5000 CR ion which he tied up the last 800m. For a new guy in the program, I consider those repeat 53's/54's, dropping Rupp at the end, pretty impressive overall, yet he gets little accusation of doping.
People double all the time with an hour rest. This is no big deal.
If you can race hard + rest an hour + race hard again, then you can certainly race hard + rest an hour + do a workout.
set the record straight wrote:
People double all the time with an hour rest. This is no big deal.
If you can race hard + rest an hour + race hard again, then you can certainly race hard + rest an hour + do a workout.
He rested for maybe 15 minutes.
personally, when i was in shape with a decent build up, it was no problem to come back and run a decent workout. a 2 mile is not that exhausting for a 10k guy.
that is if you ran say 90% of capacity.
so rupp must have run at 90%.
this means he's not peak. and he can't get it all out on the track in a shorter distance. and be totally exhausted. and you know that 4:25 pace ain't out of this world for a top guy, thought certainly a finish with a 401 buggs out the eyes, no doubt.
sure rupp has the top legal vitamins, but not super PEDs that make a Ramzi out of any 1:46 800m guy.
if rupp does not own all the american records from 3 to 10k this year, then something has gone drastically wrong.
I guess a lot of people just woke up to Galen Rupp? I remember hearing about him doing TOUGH workouts after races his freshmen year at Oregon, that was almost 10 years ago. I know a lot of guys who talked about this back then.
I forget exactly what the workout was, but after he fell down in a 5000m race and got back up to run 13:50 he was out on the trails or another track doing a full blown workout.
I believe the same thing after he ran his 28:15 weeks later.
This stuff is not new. In fact the way I heard it described was that his workouts were insanely tough back then and indicated much more than his racing level/pr's at that time.
Assuming that he already started doing this in high school, it's not all a stretch that the workout after race thing is just second nature at this point. It's also not much of a stretch to assume that in his early years this would have taken a bigger toll on him, leaving him flatter during races and unable to kick as well. But after 8-10 years of it and hitting his mid 20's, well that is precisely when this long term investment starts to pay dividends.
There are probably a few times when he doesn't think about a workout afterwards, and those are international championships. I think in there minds everything up to then, is just prep. No matter how important an AR or WR attempt at and indoor 2 mile record may seem to most of us, to them it's only important if it doesn't take them off track with the bigger goal.
Good post.
Salazar strongly implies in his interviews that hard as it is for us mortals to assimilate, 13:01 and 8:07 are NOT reflecting what AS regards as his true fitness. He definitely "training through" at this point. Next week will have a few workouts and then it is a full taper for the mile attempt. If he pops a 3:48 or even faster, or an easy gold at World Indoor, AS will have a huge "I knew it all along" look on his face. He even mentions Rupp being "at this new level".
We'll see in the next month whether this pans out.
This was just a time-trial at 5k pace (12.36), which Rupp should easily be able to do this summer, and set a new WR.
Therefore, since it was just a TT, reasonable to expect him him to be able to do 5 more mile reps - 4 at his LT pace (4.20/mile is his 10 mile pace) and a fast mile (at 3k pace, so a VO2max rep). Not that tough when put into that context.
Mo Farah too will be at a new level as well, which will be evident in London - look for a debut of double his half time from last fall. Seems reasonable.
Hasay will improve so much this year - will make you wonder what they are doing wrong at Oregon - that all runners worldwide will flock to NOP, or at least ask to join, since Hasay is a role model to ALL to female runners in the world.
I know Al Sal has no respect for "message board rats" such as us, but there's one thing I don't get: why does he make a workout like this public? Wasn't there someone else Rupp could have gone to continue his workout, or another way he could have achieved the same results? This is just feeding the trolls, it seems.
Hmmm.... wrote:
I know Al Sal has no respect for "message board rats" such as us, but there's one thing I don't get: why does he make a workout like this public? Wasn't there someone else Rupp could have gone to continue his workout, or another way he could have achieved the same results? This is just feeding the trolls, it seems.
Because they don't care what 5 posters with 10 handles each have to say about a post race workout? Trolls only exist if you allow them to.
runner who professes wrote:
I am convinced that athletes who anticipate post-race workouts hold something back in the race. Central governor. This should be studied.
You have a very interesting theory. I think a good coach would not tell the athlete they do a workout before the race and only do one if the race does not go well. We do know that the subconscious can inhibit performance if it think the body will need reserves later on. This is built into the subconscious as a survival strategy.
HRE wrote:
I did 100-150 mile weeks for six years. I could never do any sort of interval session after a race. Cool down jogs were difficult enough. I'm not in any way comparing myself to Rupp but having done the sort of mileage he has done makes the post race session he did mind boggling. And that's why so many posters have a hard time believing it.
So, what exactly are you saying, HRE? (And please list YOUR PRs.)