Middle Distance Coach wrote:
Evidence doesn't sport that. Decker was a phenom in HS and yes, I'm old enough to remember, but she wasn't better than Cain is today.
You're not old enough to remember Decker beating world record holders and Olympic champions while in highschool? Cain is barely on the same straightaway as the current world record.
troglodyte wrote:
Nice seeing Bjorklund on your list. No way Hasay is number 2 and Decker at 8 is quite humorous. Cain, Decker, Gallagher are top 3 by far.
The only mark of Decker's that is still Top-5 All-Time is her 800m, which is #5. Yes, she was AMAZING for her time. But you can't say times don't mean anything in track.
For the record, I think the #4-8 athletes in my list could be in any order. However, I feel pretty strongly that those top three are the top 3, IMO. Hasay ran 4:14.50 for 1500m, making the Olympic Trials; ran 9:52 for 3200m, and was very successful for her entire career in XC (four Top-10 finishes, three Top-3 finishes and 2 Championships at FLN). I don't think you can dock her just because she didn't really run the 800m, or because she is a recent grad.
Sartor Resartus wrote:
jyv wrote:Decker was significantly greater than Cain currently is
Please explain your reasoning for that statement.
I would assume this is because she was better on the world/national stage?
Womens competition was much weaker in the 1970s (though I suppose that could theoretically work in her favor, some sort of "impact factor").
While I disagree with what I would assume to be your argument, I don't find it unreasonable.
No doubt about it, the HS and national level today is much more competitive. Interestingly, the world competition in the mid 70s was at another level altogether (Tatyana Kazankina - 1:54 800, 3:52 1500). The US women were no match for the vastly superior Eastern Bloc countries at that time. Yes, they were doped to the gills, but some phenomenal performances nonetheless.
jyv wrote:
Middle Distance Coach wrote:Evidence doesn't sport that. Decker was a phenom in HS and yes, I'm old enough to remember, but she wasn't better than Cain is today.
You're not old enough to remember Decker beating world record holders and Olympic champions while in highschool? Cain is barely on the same straightaway as the current world record.
And yet Cain's HS PRs are better than Deckers. Let's just be clear, Decker was not significantly better than Cain. HS Decker was no where close to Kazankina in full form.
Lynn Jennings' 2 mile record (still the MA record) was run at Harvard, not as fast as BU today, but still banked 220y.
Where does Erin Koegh fit in this group?
The one that I feel like I underrated was Mary Shea. I could almost make a case for her as 3. That 10000 was a world leader in 1979 and is the record to this day, plus screw footlocker, she won big girl nationals her senior year (against her big sister in second). In retrospect, I'm putting her third.
Erin Keogh . . . HSR in the deuce, but with something of an asterisk beside it because of Lynn Bjorklund's vastly superior 3000 performance and two Footlocker wins (more common for the girls than for boys) . . . certainly an honorable mention. Same for Lynn Jennings.
To the person who said Jordan Hasay, while she was an excellent runner and has an excellent case (2 Footlocker wins and 1500 HSR), I feel that others have a stronger claim. Maybe she could knock out Cathy Schiro.
And Lynn Jennings certainly an honorable mention.
Also should have mentioned Francie Larrieu.
watchout wrote:
1. Mary Cain
2. Jordan Hasay
3. Kim Gallagher
4. Kim Mortensen
5. Lynn Bjorklund
6. Emily Sisson
7. Polly Plumer
8. Mary Decker
9. Caitlin Chock
10. Melody Fairchild
... I feel very good about the top 8. After that, it starts to get more questionable... not as many great girls as there have been great boys. Cranny and Efraimson (and possibly Baxter) could all make the top 10 this year, though, to make things a bit more clear.
You are losing credibility with me. Caitlin Chock over Lynn Jennings? Are you kidding? What did chock have, one good season, due in part to an eating disorder, sorry that doesn't cut it.
Hassay has won more cross country championships than Cain.
Cain is not one of the best all-time. This is based on the fact she is self centered and refused to run for her school. She never won a cross country championship. She lost to Baxter who is #9 on your list.
One track season does not solidify you as the best all time. She's a spoiled brat. And affiliated with a coach known for his gimmicks and personal PED use. Sad.
BillCarr wrote:
Lynn Jennings' 2 mile record (still the MA record) was run at Harvard, not as fast as BU today, but still banked 220y.
Yes it was and her mile was run a Madison Square harder I believe, an 11 lap to the mile banked track. Not at all considered fast, the 4:38 there is a 4:32 at BU.
Decker competed internationally and did not embarrass herself. Hasay's 4:14 barely made her national class. Shiro's 2:34 OT marathon alone should put her on the list. No one has ever really come close to it.
troglodyte wrote:
Decker competed internationally and did not embarrass herself. Hasay's 4:14 barely made her national class. Shiro's 2:34 OT marathon alone should put her on the list. No one has ever really come close to it.
Don't forget the 16:47 at Van Cortland Park by Schiro, clearly belongs up there.
So what if she lost to Sarah Baxter? Alan Webb lost to Ritz and is higher on the boys all-time list.
Cain had several other excellent track seasons, including breaking the HSR in the 1500 as a junior. Even if it was only one track season, 1) we are talking about high school here, where everyone has a limited number of seasons, and 2) it was some kind of season; as far as times go, there are high school girls, and then there is Mary Cain. Plus she won indoor nationals and mace the final of worlds.
And "spoiled brat" and "affiliated with . . . PED use"? Dude, she's a little girl, lay off.
Good threads Sartor. Overall, maybe the most accurate and balanced ATB list I've seen. I've seen tons of the same threads here before, but the lists are either too weighted towards the last 15yrs (i.e., young OPs that don't read history) or all legacy runners from 30+yrs ago (i.e., older OPs that don't keep up with current performances). Keep reading your history:).
mass pole. wrote:
watchout wrote:1. Mary Cain
2. Jordan Hasay
3. Kim Gallagher
4. Kim Mortensen
5. Lynn Bjorklund
6. Emily Sisson
7. Polly Plumer
8. Mary Decker
9. Caitlin Chock
10. Melody Fairchild
... I feel very good about the top 8. After that, it starts to get more questionable... not as many great girls as there have been great boys. Cranny and Efraimson (and possibly Baxter) could all make the top 10 this year, though, to make things a bit more clear.
You are losing credibility with me. Caitlin Chock over Lynn Jennings? Are you kidding? What did chock have, one good season, due in part to an eating disorder, sorry that doesn't cut it.
Chock ran 15:52.88 for what was then a HSR, and still is the #3 5k All-Time. She also ran sub-10 for 3200m and 4:42.52y.
NONE of Jennings marks are Top-5 today, and none of her marks were ever HS Records (unless you separate Indoor and Outdoor, but I don't since indoor is only really run in a select few states, especially back then).
Jennings: 4:18.06 for 1500m, 4:39.0y indoors, and... 10:05 for 2 miles? None are still Top-5 All-Time, and I don't think even her mile mark is still Top-10 All-Time.
Chock: 15:52.88 for 5k (still #3 All-Time), 9:58.51 for 3200m (#11 All-Time), 4:42.53y (not top-10, but also not far off Jennings, and that was her best event).
I agree that the #9/10 on my list are weak. I even said that specifically, and I expect Efraimson and Cranny to surpass them this year.
It depends on whether you value the standard deviation of the mean or just the absolute. Isaac Newton would score high on the first scale, but not even be mentioned on the second ... today.
There are people who made an impact on the media and their sport. That is one category.
There are people who ran faster times than ever before. That is another category.
There are people who ran times that were unusual for their era. That is another category.
It would be better if these categories were presented as separate value systems rather than pretending that you can create a final list of anything.
very true.
Waaaay too fvckin analytical buddy. We're just trying to have some fun here. Nobody's getting paid for this (except for the BroJos) as far as I know.
Davew wrote:
It depends on whether you value the standard deviation of the mean or just the absolute. Isaac Newton would score high on the first scale, but not even be mentioned on the second ... today.
There are people who made an impact on the media and their sport. That is one category.
There are people who ran faster times than ever before. That is another category.
There are people who ran times that were unusual for their era. That is another category.
It would be better if these categories were presented as separate value systems rather than pretending that you can create a final list of anything.
Sartor Resartus wrote:
And "spoiled brat" and "affiliated with . . . PED use"? Dude, she's a little girl, lay off.
I agree with your defense of Cain, but she is not at all a little girl. She'll be out of highschool in a matter of months.
watchout wrote:
Chock ran 15:52.88 for what was then a HSR, and still is the #3 5k All-Time. She also ran sub-10 for 3200m and 4:42.52y.
NONE of Jennings marks are Top-5 today, and none of her marks were ever HS Records (unless you separate Indoor and Outdoor, but I don't since indoor is only really run in a select few states, especially back then).
Jennings: 4:18.06 for 1500m, 4:39.0y indoors, and... 10:05 for 2 miles? None are still Top-5 All-Time, and I don't think even her mile mark is still Top-10 All-Time.
Chock: 15:52.88 for 5k (still #3 All-Time), 9:58.51 for 3200m (#11 All-Time), 4:42.53y (not top-10, but also not far off Jennings, and that was her best event).
I agree that the #9/10 on my list are weak. I even said that specifically, and I expect Efraimson and Cranny to surpass them this year.
How can you not separate indoor and outdoor? Indoor tracks are not as fast as outdoor tracks, especially not Madison Square Garden's old 11 lap to the mile track where Jennings ran 4:39.0. She did not run spring track that year because she jumped in the Boston marathon and ran 2:46 (i think it was actually 2:43), she certainly would have run very fast.
Like I said earlier, Chock did not have a great HS career, she had a great HS year, due to the eating disorder, look at the toll it took, which is pretty sad.