NXN - Alexa 1st, Cranny 2nd, Baxter 3rd

Montesquieu wrote:

I think Cranny runs 35 mpw now.[quote]woha wrote:

]

Really? I thought it was more like 50, but don't remember where I saw that.

Baxter (or her coaches) also hasn't put herself into race situations where she would get good competition - as did Ephraimson this year. All well and good to destroy your local competition on a regular basis, but development means going beyond that "comfort" zone. She should have at least done world XC last winter - you can't tell me she wouldn't make the team. Those conditions and competition would have better prepared her for this race. Alexa and Mary both have international experience - it showed today for AE. I don't understand why more HS athletes don't try out for US teams - the experience makes a big difference (even for Hasay) when going beyond even the NCAA level later - it helped both Sheila Reid and Kate Van Buskirk (Canada) in there careers. Hopefully Cranny will heed this advice as well.

kool wrote:

No, he is correct. The times weren't that fast. The difficulty of the course doesn't change that fact dude.

Humm... So one course is all uphill with wind in your face with hay bales and another course is down hill with wind at your back it is all the same?

DaveyGuy wrote:

kool wrote:

No, he is correct. The times weren't that fast. The difficulty of the course doesn't change that fact dude.

Humm... So one course is all uphill with wind in your face with hay bales and another course is down hill with wind at your back it is all the same?

If that's how you interpreted my statement then you're dumb.

socrates wrote:

Baxter (or her coaches) also hasn't put herself into race situations where she would get good competition - as did Ephraimson this year. All well and good to destroy your local competition on a regular basis, but development means going beyond that "comfort" zone. She should have at least done world XC last winter - you can't tell me she wouldn't make the team. Those conditions and competition would have better prepared her for this race. Alexa and Mary both have international experience - it showed today for AE. I don't understand why more HS athletes don't try out for US teams - the experience makes a big difference (even for Hasay) when going beyond even the NCAA level later - it helped both Sheila Reid and Kate Van Buskirk (Canada) in there careers. Hopefully Cranny will heed this advice as well.

Her coaches have also been smart in keeping her training light and the focus on team fun. She is a fantastic talent who definitely has a lot more room to grow, especially when she finally increases her mileage.

This tells the story of what happened in the last part of the race.

800M PR's

Alexa Efraimson: 2:07

Elise Cranny: 2:08

Sarah Baxter: 2:17

I have the greatest respect for Sarah baxter's accomplishments but if and when she goes Pro she will have to run the Marathon; a 2:17 800M is too slow to compete Internationally at the 5K...even 10K.

runingggggg wrote:

I bet no one expected Baxter in 3rd, but an amazing race, Alexa blew past them like it was nothing.

I predicted Baxter 3rd and others probably did too. I thought Cranny would win, and Efraimson 2nd due to killing her legs with that workout, but she hung on for the kick.

The course was fast and there wasn't any competition to break up the trio.

Woody Allen wrote:

This tells the story of what happened in the last part of the race.

800M PR's

Alexa Efraimson: 2:07

Elise Cranny: 2:08

Sarah Baxter: 2:17

I have the greatest respect for Sarah baxter's accomplishments but if and when she goes Pro she will have to run the Marathon; a 2:17 800M is too slow to compete Internationally at the 5K...even 10K.

This^^^

She might have a shot at being competitive in the 10k. To do so she would need to push the pace and run aggressively, much like Natosha Rogers. Front runners are much more un to watch than kickers

Woody Allen wrote:

This tells the story of what happened in the last part of the race.

800M PR's

Alexa Efraimson: 2:07

Elise Cranny: 2:08

Sarah Baxter: 2:17

I have the greatest respect for Sarah baxter's accomplishments but if and when she goes Pro she will have to run the Marathon; a 2:17 800M is too slow to compete Internationally at the 5K...even 10K.

I agree, the 5k distance just isn't far enough for Baxter to put girls away who have far superior middle distance credentials. I also think you lose confidence when you have runners right next to you with 800m to go and you have not experienced that before. I don't have a problem with Baxter's milege, but she should she should have sort out better competition. That sistuation today was not new for the other two girls. With that said, she ran a great race, probably the best that she could under the circumstances.

It should be interesting to see if Baxter can improve her speed in response to a race like this. While she may never be capable of a 23-second 200 a la Mary Slaney, if she's never lifted seriously or trained for speed, she may well be capable of Rupp-like progress.

Didn't look to be all about fun for Baxter in her recent Flotrack interview after she missed her course record by 3 seconds in her last race.

She was pissed.

Losing this race after coming in undefeated for her whole high school career in XC? I doubt she calls this fun. Probably quite upset she wasn't better prepared. Doubt 4 years of college will change that perspective.

When will coaches stop blaming high mileage for burning out their runners early or having them peak in high school (see FM girls peak early thread)?

It is bruising intervals run too fast that burns out runners not high mileage.

19jay63 wrote:

Didn't look to be all about fun for Baxter in her recent Flotrack interview after she missed her course record by 3 seconds in her last race.

She was pissed.

Losing this race after coming in undefeated for her whole high school career in XC? I doubt she calls this fun. Probably quite upset she wasn't better prepared. Doubt 4 years of college will change that perspective.

When will coaches stop blaming high mileage for burning out their runners early or having them peak in high school (see FM girls peak early thread)?

It is bruising intervals run too fast that burns out runners not high mileage.

I'm trying to find a reason why the same thing would burn different runners out. I know runners who can handle 3+ workouts per week no problem but get hurt as soon as they up the mileage, even if they do fewer workouts and run their easy runs slow. Meanwhile I can handle higher mileage like it's a joke but even two workouts per week took me years to be able to handle; three would definitely not be feasible yet. And then there's the matter of what they enjoy. Some runners like going fast a lot but hate running high mileage; obviously, high mileage is going to mentally burn those runners out.

Not every runner is the same and not every runner should train the same way.

I wonder wrote:

[quote]Woody Allen wrote:

Front runners are much more un to watch than kickers

I don't know, it was pretty fun watching Alexa find not just another gear, but a totally different reality (she put nearly eight seconds on Baxter the final 400). From the halfway point until the final straight, I was convinced that Cranny would steal it, as she looked very fluid and matched Baxter step-for-step. Then Alexa entered Hyperspace.

A race for the ages.

There is a difference between getting hurt or breaking down, and the actual "burn out" people speak of. Burn-out is supposed to be a long-term effect where runners who do too much in the short-term sacrifice long-term development. However this may be only a statistical illusion, because runners who don't train hard in the short-term do not approach their potential and leave more upside for the future.

Most of the collegiate women I know who "burned out" (they are hardly running anymore and not nearly as fast as they used to be) just ran so intensely in college that they really didn't desire to run that intensely after college. I think for women at least it's usually more mental/emotional than it is physical.

Woody Allen wrote:

This tells the story of what happened in the last part of the race.

800M PR's

Alexa Efraimson: 2:07

Elise Cranny: 2:08

Sarah Baxter: 2:17

I have the greatest respect for Sarah baxter's accomplishments but if and when she goes Pro she will have to run the Marathon; a 2:17 800M is too slow to compete Internationally at the 5K...even 10K.

Are you joking? Her 800 pr is not relevant since she could crush it. Quoting a time at a distance she doesn't run at the big meets is incredibly ignorant.

figure outer wrote:

I wonder wrote:

[quote]Woody Allen wrote:

Front runners are much more un to watch than kickers

I don't know, it was pretty fun watching Alexa find not just another gear, but a totally different reality (she put nearly eight seconds on Baxter the final 400). From the halfway point until the final straight, I was convinced that Cranny would steal it, as she looked very fluid and matched Baxter step-for-step. Then Alexa entered Hyperspace.

A race for the ages.

Oh I agree . I have no issues with the kicker winning off of a fast hard pace. God bless em. But jogfests among kickers is extremely tedious to watch.

This race had many of the undertones of the Ritz-Webb-Hall duel way back when

xenonscreams wrote:

Most of the collegiate women I know who "burned out" (they are hardly running anymore and not nearly as fast as they used to be) just ran so intensely in college that they really didn't desire to run that intensely after college. I think for women at least it's usually more mental/emotional than it is physical.

You're above advice about each runner needing to be seen and trained individually is wise.

I hate it when people ascribe any piece of burnout to being "mental."

Do you really want to stigmatize young runners with that concept?

Do you believe that the mind and body are separate?

Sure, maybe some females can get burned out on the team intensity of things etc.

Some kids get burned out on 4 years of college classes and don't ever want to take a class with such pressure again. Some go on to med school. Everyone has different wiring and resiliency.

But many female runners are not over trained, not over pressurized, and find life long running an everlasting joy. Those are the women with smart coaches, and a smart sense of health and balance and life long fitness as their goals.

Even when there is a mental component to burnout, burnout, to me, is always physical. The thinking brain and the emotional brain components to the brain are all in the body and influenced by nutrition and rest etc. etc. etc.

Bowerman used to say that each runner needs to be seen as an individual, that not all runners could handle the same workload, and he paid proactive attention to that. The most classic example, is in his program runners ran intervals or hard, 3 times a week. Kenny Moore was cut back to 2 times a week, because he broke down, lost weight, got injured when he ran hard 3 times a week. Kenny Moore went on to take 4th in the Olympic marathon in addition to many other fine accomplishments in running.

Bowerman also said that it was easier to recover from under training than over training, and that you should always leave the track, or a workout, feeling like you'd left a little bit more that you could have done out there on the track or the trail. You wanted you to leave the hard workouts exhilarated and with a hunger for more -- not spent and exhausted.

--I'm sure there are athletes that can leave the track crawling (like Mo tweeted some months back), however, the above was Bowerman's philosophy, and probably a wise one.

Never risk over training.

Retardalert. wrote:

Woody Allen wrote:

This tells the story of what happened in the last part of the race.

800M PR's

Alexa Efraimson: 2:07

Elise Cranny: 2:08

Sarah Baxter: 2:17

I have the greatest respect for Sarah baxter's accomplishments but if and when she goes Pro she will have to run the Marathon; a 2:17 800M is too slow to compete Internationally at the 5K...even 10K.

Are you joking? Her 800 pr is not relevant since she could crush it. Quoting a time at a distance she doesn't run at the big meets is incredibly ignorant.

This do you guys really believe a 4:47 miler can only run 2:17 for 800 if so she is capable of shattering american records in the 5 10 half and full