If form drills are supposed to work, how come some sprinters still have bad form?

pooter thompson wrote:

when you say "form", I assume that you mean mechanics... correct? Just by saying "form" tells me that you have no clue what you're talking about... and I mean this toward every poster on this thread.

Except for me, you mean, since I haven't used the word "form" once. I'm simply saying that good runners spend time on drills.

WOW! Thanks for the video about Somex! That is amazing. So many people on Slowtwitch were saying running technique did not matter. I knew that was wrong but had not seen the Somex technique. I had noticed the Africans style and tried to run that way but boy is it hard! You have to have a LOT of strength and flexibility that most will never have.[/quote]

I'm having a hard time telling if you folks are serious. Those videos are an absolute joke. Hilarious beyond belief. Can you be serious?[/quote]

YES,I am serious. Those videos show a stride comparison analysis between an African runner and Chris Solinski. It compares stride angles, arm angle, flexion angle etc. and things like bounce. The African runner has FAR LARGER stride angles and a lower bounce indicating a smoother, stronger, more flexible runner. That is why the African are faster than guys like Solinski.

Ok, you're cool... come on over.

you got some splainin to do wrote:

marijuologist wrote:

Drills only make you good at doing drills. They do absolutely nothing to improve your actual running.

It seems strange that so many national and world class runners waste so much time on drills, then. And almost every collegiate team, too. I guess we're presented with a choice: 1.) almost every coach and world-class athlete is wrong, and marijuologist from the internet (and at one time the back of a police car) is right, simply because he says so in an authoritative tone, or 2.) marijuologist doesn't fully understand the purpose of drills. And choice number 1 could very well be correct; I'm just stating the position in which you're putting your readers.

Given the firm knowledge that sprinting ability is almost totally determined by genetics, it seems strange to me that anyone could be a big enough of an embarrassment to assume that whatever elite sprinters do for training is correct. Yes, world class sprinters and coaches who use drills (and a long list of other mainstream training practices including Olympic lifts, plyometrics, stretching, massage, periodization, and pretty much anything other than a small amount of high quality sprinting and simple weight training) are wrong about what they believe and do. "HA HA! You expect me to listen to you over a bunch of semi-literate Jamaicans who run fast?" No, I don't. I expect you to continue to be an idiot.

quarter lber wrote:

If repeating form drills over and over are supposed to help teach correct form, how come some sprinters still have bad form in a relatively short distance compared to distance runners? I mean if you cant teach proper form over such a short distsncr using these drills, how are they supposed to help a distance runner over a far greater distance?

You make it sound like all drills are equal. Most drills are based on poor understanding of how energy moves through a physical body.

If the drills you are doing don't apply on a macrocosmic and microcosmic level, they are incorrect to begin with and won't align ones movement with nature no matter how many times they are repeated.

Specifically, the video with Solinsky is trash. To start with, the camera angles being used are oriented from different points of reference which really negates all the numbers being spit out.

It's nice to look at such things as the person was doing on Flotrack, but there is no depth to it. The numbers can give one clues if the camera angles are nearly identical, but in this case they are not, which only further distorts the truth.

You would be better off watching the movement of physical bodies that are not effected by emotion, such as animals, the planets, or even bacteria. That is pure energy. Make up your own drills based on these observations. People will think you're "weird", but that's the cost you have to pay if you want to understand yourself better.

For those who don't think form matters: try running on all fours and see how fast you can go, or try "running" on your hands, or just using one leg, or not moving your arms when you run, or hopping like a kangaroo, etc.

Yes, form f-in matters, but if you aren't willing to figure it out on your own, don't expect someone else is going to be able to tell you. There is so much truth to the saying, "You can't tell somebody something they don't already know."

Just run, baby.

pooter thompson wrote:

you're dumb...

SMJO wrote:

When you have a whole day to kill you need to find some way of filling the time. Drills are a good way to amuse yourself and make your coach feel important.

Super Jay Five wrote:

WOW! Thanks for the video about Somex! That is amazing. So many people on Slowtwitch were saying running technique did not matter. I knew that was wrong but had not seen the Somex technique. I had noticed the Africans style and tried to run that way but boy is it hard! You have to have a LOT of strength and flexibility that most will never have.

I'm having a hard time telling if you folks are serious. Those videos are an absolute joke. Hilarious beyond belief. Can you be serious?[/quote]

YES,I am serious. Those videos show a stride comparison analysis between an African runner and Chris Solinski. It compares stride angles, arm angle, flexion angle etc. and things like bounce. The African runner has FAR LARGER stride angles and a lower bounce indicating a smoother, stronger, more flexible runner. That is why the African are faster than guys like Solinski.[/quote]

OK, try this. Watch the following video without busting out laughing at least once. I dare you.

Mechanics (or form, if you prefer) matters. I thought the first video was pretty insightful, but one flaw I noticed that was the primary focus of the second video was bounce.

Yes, it's better not to bounce too much, but how much is too much? For every 4" up, the corresponding 4" down builds kinetic energy to transfer to the next step. Still, 4" sounds like too much and 1.5 inches sounds better, but there's a lot more going on biomechanically than just bounce.

The stride length angles I thought was pretty insightful, but again, it takes more energy to raise the front leg higher, so again there is a trade off. In all, I think there's enough useful information in these videos to share with others.

What the What wrote:

Super Jay Five wrote:

WOW! Thanks for the video about Somex! That is amazing. So many people on Slowtwitch were saying running technique did not matter. I knew that was wrong but had not seen the Somex technique. I had noticed the Africans style and tried to run that way but boy is it hard! You have to have a LOT of strength and flexibility that most will never have.

I'm having a hard time telling if you folks are serious. Those videos are an absolute joke. Hilarious beyond belief. Can you be serious?

YES,I am serious. Those videos show a stride comparison analysis between an African runner and Chris Solinski. It compares stride angles, arm angle, flexion angle etc. and things like bounce. The African runner has FAR LARGER stride angles and a lower bounce indicating a smoother, stronger, more flexible runner. That is why the African are faster than guys like Solinski.[/quote]

OK, try this. Watch the following video without busting out laughing at least once. I dare you.

[/quote]

I guess you are referring to the saying "the truth is funny!" Just by looking at "white people" run I can see exactly what the Somax videos are saying. The Africans just have so much more range of motion in their legs and hips that with each stride they leap FORWARD and the white people move UP and DOWN. The Africans must think "those white folks sure run funny"! Being an older unflexible white guy I have a really hard time trying to copy the African style. I am not sure drills can really fix it (after a certain age anyway, if they can let me know).

BUT, there is a third alternative that even your average slow white person can do! That is to MOVE YOUR HEAD BACKWARDS (at least one inch)! Steve Prefontaine ran this way. When your head moves backwards your chest, hips and legs MOVE FORWARD! That is exactly what we want! All your weight goes onto your hips and thighs and it produces a smoother, easier, longer stride with less bounce. In other words you get some of the benefits of the African style and still be white, ha ha. Try it!

you got some splainin to do wrote:

where's your proof wrote:

Actually you're the one who's wrong. Very few world class and collegiate teams waste time on form drills.

Bernard Lagat

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/238921-FloEuro-Adventures-2011/video/499671-Bernard-Lagat-Race-Day-Routine-in-Paris

Kenenisa Bekele

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuf80lOyoV0

Leo Manzano

http://www.flotrack.org/video/164657-Leo-Manzano-Workout-First-Track-Session-2009-Episode-9

Shannon Rowbury

http://www.flotrack.org/video/654704-WOW-Shannon-Rowbury-Pre-Zurich-200s

Symmonds, Mulder, Greer

http://www.flotrack.org/video/718093-WOW-Symmonds-and-Mulders-Final-Speed-Session-Before-London

Members of 2012 Kenyan Olympic team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJxUpyZhj40

Ryan Hill

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/250800-KBC-Night-of-Athletics-Heusden-2013/video/717179-Ryan-Hills-Last-Workout-Before-Heusden

Ben True

http://www.flotrack.org/video/714118-Ben-The-Answer-Is-True-6-x-mile-WOW

Brenda Martinez

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/712300-Brenda-Martinez-interval-session-with-all-out-400m-tag

I got bored looking these up, so I stopped here. Anyway, you're wrong. Plenty of elite runners spend time doing drills.

You seriously don't believer that skipping around the track like little girls in a playground has anything to do with "form"?

You need to spend more time at http://www.somaxsports.com/index.php and you will realize that you are not brilliant enough to understand anything these guys say. But if you sign up for one of thier 42k dollar microfiber reduction programs, you will be setting world records in no time at all.

Coll wrote:

That Somax guy doesn't understand pace. The pic of Bekele is at 54" per 400m, while Solinsky's analysis is done at 66" per 400m. His example of 125-degrees is a guy flat out sprinting compared to 6:00 pace.

No credibility.

Hardloper wrote:

pooter thompson wrote:

you're dumb...

Despite that SMJO is a loser who always makes fun of me, he is spot-on with that comment.

I don't make fun of you when you recognize my genius.

What the What wrote:

OK, try this. Watch the following video without busting out laughing at least once. I dare you.

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/238775-Somax-Stride-Analysis/video/490928-Sub-2-Hour-Marathon-An-American-Record

This edit is better. Watch it. I dare you.

You said cosmic....lol

what about Astrocosmic? Are there astrocosmic drills one can do?

Hardloper wrote:

pooter thompson wrote:

you're dumb...

Despite that SMJO is a loser who always makes fun of me, he is spot-on with that comment.

So, you're saying that Bolt got to sprint this way without working at it:

THIS is how he got to sprint like that:

And of course these guys need to stop doing drills and listen to anonymous losers on a message board:

I'm really not a big drill coach--I probably use more plyos than drills, including plyos as drills--but, frankly, a bunch of slow joggers commenting sprint form is laughable.

Part of the reason Bolt is what he is and you guys are what you are is that Bolt listens to his coach.

where's your proof wrote:

you got some splainin to do wrote:

Bernard Lagat

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/238921-FloEuro-Adventures-2011/video/499671-Bernard-Lagat-Race-Day-Routine-in-Paris

Kenenisa Bekele

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuf80lOyoV0

Leo Manzano

http://www.flotrack.org/video/164657-Leo-Manzano-Workout-First-Track-Session-2009-Episode-9

Shannon Rowbury

http://www.flotrack.org/video/654704-WOW-Shannon-Rowbury-Pre-Zurich-200s

Symmonds, Mulder, Greer

http://www.flotrack.org/video/718093-WOW-Symmonds-and-Mulders-Final-Speed-Session-Before-London

Members of 2012 Kenyan Olympic team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJxUpyZhj40

Ryan Hill

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/250800-KBC-Night-of-Athletics-Heusden-2013/video/717179-Ryan-Hills-Last-Workout-Before-Heusden

Ben True

http://www.flotrack.org/video/714118-Ben-The-Answer-Is-True-6-x-mile-WOW

Brenda Martinez

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/712300-Brenda-Martinez-interval-session-with-all-out-400m-tag

I got bored looking these up, so I stopped here. Anyway, you're wrong. Plenty of elite runners spend time doing drills.

You seriously don't believer that skipping around the track like little girls in a playground has anything to do with "form"?

No. I never said anything about "form." Read more carefully.

coach d wrote:

THIS is how he got to sprint like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQkCWitRD8A

tip #1 A-skips

you want good turnover and knee drive, do yer a-skips like Bolt and Symmonds

Super Jay Five wrote:

WOW! Thanks for the video about Somex! That is amazing. So many people on Slowtwitch were saying running technique did not matter. I knew that was wrong but had not seen the Somex technique. I had noticed the Africans style and tried to run that way but boy is it hard! You have to have a LOT of strength and flexibility that most will never have.

I'm having a hard time telling if you folks are serious. Those videos are an absolute joke. Hilarious beyond belief. Can you be serious?[/quote]

YES,I am serious. Those videos show a stride comparison analysis between an African runner and Chris Solinski. It compares stride angles, arm angle, flexion angle etc. and things like bounce. The African runner has FAR LARGER stride angles and a lower bounce indicating a smoother, stronger, more flexible runner. That is why the African are faster than guys like Solinski.[/quote]

6/10 at least. Maybe more. THIS is how you bait someone in.