Coe vs Kipketer Vs rudisha

Not at all. it was a different era. Coe DID NOT HAVE bi-annual world championships to contest during his career. The only 2 were 4 years apart, and he was past his best for both of these events. Kipketer and Rudisha have many more opportunities to contest global events.

You also contradict yourself. You say that being ill or injured is part of the game. Fair enough. So why then mention Kipketer's malaria as a factor? Of course it is, but you can't have it both ways.

In the same way, it is not Coe's fault that there were boycotts in the 80 and 84 Olympics. That is beyond his control. You can only compete against who is there on the day.

In Olympic competition, the pinnacle of the sport, Coe's record at 800m, 2 silvers, is better than Kipketer's, 1 silver, 1 bronze. These are facts.

Even in European championships, Coe's record is better than Kipketer's. The only Championship where Kipketer is more successful is the World Champs, where he had 6 opportunities to compete and win at ; 1993. 95, 97, 99, 01, 03.

Coe had 2 to opportunities to compete in, 4 years apart and both past his 800 peak years; 83 & 87. The odds were against him and he didn't manage to compete in either due to illness and then injury.

You can't compare apples with oranges. The eras were different. The 2 constants in both eras were the Olympics (held every 4 years) and the European Championships (held every 4 years).

We don't compare Kipketer to Snell and say that Kipketer must be better because he won 3 world titles and Snell didn't win any!?

Not very bright are you?

What bit of, Kipketer had 6 global outdoor championships to compete in compared to Coe's 2 do you not understand? The athletic world was very different in the late 70s/early 80s compared to the late 90's? You clearly do not understand this.

The European Cups, of which Kipketer was eligible to run in and did, were a very big event held at the end of the season in August during Coe's era. They were no longer so important in the time of Kipketer, because by then they had World Champs.

The 2 events both competed in with equal opportunities were the Olympics and Europeans. Coe's record is better in both.

Nailed it!

Deano,

Rudisha and Kipketer rate better than Coe and so does Cruz. Cruz, as fast , one OG gold - should be two!

Deanouk wrote:

Not very bright are you?

What bit of, Kipketer had 6 global outdoor championships to compete in compared to Coe's 2 do you not understand? The athletic world was very different in the late 70s/early 80s compared to the late 90's? You clearly do not understand this.

The European Cups, of which Kipketer was eligible to run in and did, were a very big event held at the end of the season in August during Coe's era. They were no longer so important in the time of Kipketer, because by then they had World Champs.

The 2 events both competed in with equal opportunities were the Olympics and Europeans. Coe's record is better in both.

The OP never specified it had to be a championship setting anyway, so Coe's championship record is not as I mportant as some onhere make out. And your right that these guys are not comparing like with like. At end of day Coe has 2 Olympic golds and 2 silvers, so there is no question about his big race temperament.

You are correct in stating.Coe didn't have the number of opportunities on the world stage as either Kip or Rudisha, and there were far fewer races on circuit with in depth fields. I can only think of 3 times he was given a sub 50 first lap. Kip & Rudisha had them week after week in their careers.

Coe in peak 81 form would be a contendor against anyone.

Actually I understand very well. And to be honest your argument is so completely ridiculous it's becoming a remedial task dealing with you.

Maybe Coe had less opportunities. But you speak so simplistically like more opportunities automatically mean it's so much easier for Kipketer and now Rudisha to be successful.

Well yes, but you are forgetting one key thing - you have to still get out on the track and WIN. So sure Kipketer may have had 3 world champs over the span of 4 years to compete in but he still had to get out there and beat the likes of Rodahl, Sepeng, Tellez, Said-Guerni - all who were Olympic medalists and sub 1.43 runners in their own right - oh yeah, remembering that Coe broke 1.43 himself exactly TWICE in his entire career.

The athletics world in the 70's and early 80's was very different to the late 90's and 00's - IT WAS A HELL OF A LOT LESS COMPETITIVE. You rant on about how Coe used to win races by large margins - here is a stat for you:

The top 10 times in the 800m prior to 1980 looked like this - interesting Coe is not even the most featured name here- its Juantorena

1.42.33 Sebastian Coe

1.43.44 Alberto Juantorena

1.43.5 Rick Wohlhuter

1.43.50 Alberto Juantorena

1.43.57 Mike Boit

1.43.64 Alberto Juantorena

1.43.66 Alberto Juantorena

1.43.7 Marcello Fiasconaro

1.43.79 Mike Boit

1.43.84 Olaf Beyer

In 1999 alone here is what the top ten individual 800m times looked like:

1 Wilson Kipketer DEN 1.42.27

2 Japheth Kimutai KEN 1.42.69

3 Hezekiél Sepeng RSA 1.42.69

4 André Bucher SUI 1.42.92

5 Djabir Saïd-Guerni ALG 1.43.09

6 William Chirchir KEN 1.43.33

7 David Kiptoo KEN 1.43.85

8 Johan Botha RSA 1.43.91

9 Andrea Longo ITA 1.43.93

10 Kenneth Kimwetich KEN 1.43.98

This is ONE season compared to the entire history of an event prior to 1980. You know what that tells me (and probably everyone else here on these except your ignorant a$$?) that 800m running was most considerably tougher when Wilson Kipketer and now David Rudisha were/are competing than when Sebastian Coe was.

Oh and as for the European Cup - yeah I did find a result for Wilson Kipketer - he actually set the championship record of 1.44.28 in 2002 in the 2nd division - oh yeah thats faster than Sebby ever did in that momentously important competition.

I think perhaps the biggest thing we all would like to know Deano is just what is your relationship with Sebastian Coe? Facebook friends? Jilted stalker? You seem (once again) to have a completely unnatural and irrational motivation to prove to everyone how great he is when basically we already know. It seems what everyone else knows it that despite his greatest he (despite any bollocks you come up with) is just not quite as good as the two best 800m runners that ever lived.

Perhaps one day you could even ask Lord Coe what he thinks - oh wait, I doubt you have ever even met the guy, nor would he even care to spend any of his precious time with a derranged idiot like yourself.

And in case you didn't get it - just as Rudisha and Kipketer are just that little bit better than the great Sebastian Coe - I am a WHOLE lot better than you are at this game.

Deano, I have not at all criticised Coe, why should I? You know very well that I have the deepest respect of his athletics achievements. He still is my equal Nr. 6 all-time distance runner.

And I definitely have not done a "strange analysis". I have listed - from the top of my head - the most important "championship opportunities" which Coe has had during his career. And for sure "some of the best not allowed to compete" means that some of the best 800m runners in the world were not allowed to compete at this event (for sure not Coe's failure). We all know very well that Kipketer and Rudisha have more oportunities to excel at world stage than Coe has had - no question about that. But Coe also has had much more opportunities than you want to put it.

Kipketer's "championship record" is much better than Coe's (just regarding 800m). If you don't want to see it - OK, than that's OK and I will not argue with you anymore about that. For me it's obvious. (and - just again - for clarification: Coe has also run 1500m/Mile, and overall his career is "better" than Kipketer's - in my opinion.

And you know very well why I have listed Kipketer's malaria, which he has had before 1998. Just because you always list any possible "excuse" for Coe. If you don't do the same for the other runners in question, than it's getting unreliable.

The same when you tell us someone has pushed Coe - than you HAVE TO tell also - for example - about the '98 incident in the Budapest final. If you want to be credible. Kipketer maybe just was at 60% in this race - but still should have won.

Same for the 0-2-0 vs- 0-1-1 Olympic medal distribution of Coe vs Kipketer. Just listing this and not saying a single word about '96 is unreliable. And for sure he definitely even in 2000 was better than Nils Schumann, which he probably would have beaten 8 out of 10 times.

And finaly: when a runner has decided not to compete in some event, that's fine. But for sure he also can't get any credit for this. Going and winning is better than staying at home - for what ever reason.

Regarding my site: Maybe I soon will take it down completely, because I get just very few responses. The aim was to get some help to improve my stats, since I don't get this, I think to delete all.

I can send you my Aouita-list, but to which address?

1999. Hmm. Guessing the great majority of those guys were on EPO.

Where did I give Coe credit for races in which he did not compete?

Please don't take it down. I find it the most useful resource and site for athletic stats. I really appreciate the work you do on it. I could go though some of the lists to see if I can give you more info about splits or rare appearances, but to be honest I wouldn't want to be critical of such detailed analysis.

It is probably best if you could please add a link to the Aouita list on here, please. I don't really want to give out my email address on here for other posters to send offensive comments.

Cheers.

Salvator Stitchmo wrote:

And in case you didn't get it - just as Rudisha and Kipketer are just that little bit better than the great Sebastian Coe - I am a WHOLE lot better than you are at this game.

LOL. Yeah, right. You don't even get your facts right. Like your previous comment from your deleted post;

"Margin of dominance? Aye - like when Coe lost to Jens-Peter Herold in the 82 Europeans - or is there an excuse for that?"

Jens Peter Herold never competed in the 82 Europeans. It was Hans Peter Ferner who won in Athens. Herold was a predominantly 1500 runner who was on the World stage a lot later. So I advise you to go back to your reference books and look a bit more carefully next time!

And anyone who has to use swearing and personal offensive comments in a discussion, is usually indicative of someone who has already lost the argument.

The main reason why I responded specifically to your post, was this listing you did and this comment, Coe won 5 out of 11 championship races, whereas Kipketer 6 out of 12 (if I'm correct). This is - sorry - absolutely nonsense.

One of my main point is that you always totally ignore the fact that Coe had 5 opportunities at the highest level (Moscow, Helsinki, Los Angeles, Rome, Seoul) to medal, but got "just" two silvers (and Moscow even was boycottet by some important nations). For sure he wanted to win in Helsinki (for example), but he not even competed (the reason for this is not important for the comparison). He was 26! Maybe he really was "past his prime" as you called it - but not because of age, but because he didn't had anymore the level from 81. In Rome he was 30, in Seoul 31.

For sure there were no World Champs - for example - in 81. But I give him the full respect for his World Cup win. Nobody expects that he equals Kipketers "3 1/2" (just a try for the indoor one at he moment) global Gold medals. But he just has "3/4" (for the World Cup). And for sure Kipketer even has other global medals. Coe hasn't.

For me Kipketer's record is way superior to Coe's - and I have thought about such questions very often, regarding all the necessary aspects. If you differ - that's fine.

And just a last comment: 0-2-0 vs 0-1-1 (Coe vs Kipketer). When your conclusian than is that Coe is making a point against Kipketer at the Olympics - OK, than we really think different and it will be very hard to argue against each other at a good level. On the third oportunity, Coe didn't qualify (!) and Kipketer was not allowed to compete for reasons out of his reach (OK, he maybe never should have gone to Denmark...). And on this third occasion, it's really hard to imagine that he wouldn't have won. I'm not counting a Gold here for Kipketer, but I list these facts.

To my Aouita-list: I will not put more of my stats in the internet. All of them should originally become sometimes a book (or some books). Or maybe they could be published in a different way (maybe on a paysite). So, I don't want to make all of this data available for anybody. If you want the file, than please send me an email.

you shoud be praying to a deity that coe got barged & lost selection for the world cup

if he'd gone there, he wouda been facing a prime caballo & boit & got hammered in their slipstream for 3rd at best

it woud always have been a rejoinder for his career if he'd gone as the bio woud read along the lines of

"in his 1st elite 800, he got crushed by caballo/boit who ran the greatest head-to-head race ever - it was an eye-opening experience for coe"

devalued games

no kenyans/americans or west germans

in the 800 that meant no wulbeck or possibly even schmidt, who mighta felt he stood better chance in an 800 than against moses in the 400h - sub-45 speed in a slow race wouda been devastating & he had 1'44.8 fast race ability

if coe had fears about getting theu selection then he didn't deserve gold at the end

any big-time champ has no fears about trials

also, they didn't have 1st 3 past the post selection for british selection

there was alaways a discretionary slot

years when there were no multi-round championships & didn't face ovett once !

a stat as worthless as me saying that rudy has had an unbeaten '13

averaging ~ 3 euro circuit 800s/year will help...

Deanouk wrote:In Olympic competition, the pinnacle of the sport, Coe's record at 800m, 2 silvers, is better than Kipketer's, 1 silver, 1 bronze. These are facts

fool

nothing like the full facts

the full facts are :

"kip won 1 silver & 1 bronze in 2 games but was not eligible to compete in '96 due to changing nationalities, a year when he ran 1'41.8 & next best was 1'42.5"

said88 wrote:Regarding my site: Maybe I soon will take it down completely, because I get just very few responses. The aim was to get some help to improve my stats, since I don't get this, I think to delete all.

I can send you my Aouita-list, but to which address?

don't do it

if you are not paying a hosting fee to keep it running, then it's not costing you anything

if you are paying a fee, then wait a while

we'll petition letsrun to see if they will put the info/stats on here ( there's no way they will throw away such good stats ), perhaps in some archive or stats section on this site ( perhaps even create one )

if you want us to petition letsrun, i'll start a topic ( & put aouita's stats back )

ventolin^3 wrote:devalued games

no kenyans/americans or west germans

in the 800 that meant no wulbeck or possibly even schmidt, who mighta felt he stood better chance in an 800 than against moses in the 400h - sub-45 speed in a slow race wouda been devastating & he had 1'44.8 fast race ability

forgot to mention

he lost to paige at 800 in '80

paige who coudn't go to moscow because of the boycott

Indeed, in the 4 years between the 78 European and 82 European, he lost just twice at any distance, both 800m

averaging ~ 3 euro circuit 800s/year will help...[/quote]

& in those 4y, he ran 800 just once in 4y in euro meets anyone's ever heard of - oslo, zurich & koln

he obviously ran his home meet of london most years

most of his euro circuit 800s in those years were in the titanic meeting of viareggio - '78/'79/'80/'81 - paige hunted him down to there in '80 so he coud get a head-to-head & beat him

i didn't know this

paige beat coe?

so coe, at his peak in 800, in 1980, beaten in two separate 800s - supposedly 2 seconds better then anybody!

how can you say he is best ever?

Its simple - you can't.

Sebastian Coe = best ever 800-1500m combo runner but going head to head vs 800m specialists like Kipketer and Rudisha and even over 1500m against El Guerrojou he just isn't at that level.

Like thats a criticism at all of Coe?!

said88 wrote:

The main reason why I responded specifically to your post, was this listing you did and this comment, Coe won 5 out of 11 championship races, whereas Kipketer 6 out of 12 (if I'm correct). This is - sorry - absolutely nonsense.

No, you are not correct. I specifically said "major competitions" not championships. There is a big difference. I included the term "major competitions" because they were different eras and Kipketer ran in many more "major competitions" than did Coe, partly because Coe missed more due to illness/injury, but partly because there were more major competitions to run in during Kipketer's era.

There is also a big difference between someone choosing to change nationality, knowing that would prevent him from running in the Olympics, and someone who was seriously ill and unable to compete in a world championships. The latter had no choice and there is nothing an athlete in that position can do about it. Coe shouldn't have been past his best in 83, but was because he had a serious illness that went undiagnosed for several months. Do you think Kipketer would have been running 1:41's in 98 had he carried on running with malaria?

It seems t me that we have the following consensus. Kipketer chose not to run in Atlanta 96 ( for reasons I understand), but people claim he would have won. It is not a failure! I agree.

But Coe could not run due to illness, is in hospital and under medication for several weeks, which is not a choice, and this represents a failure on his part! I do not agree.

This is basically what you are saying, and is completely illogical. Can you not see the double standards?