Montesquieu wrote:
Why would she leave her high school coach for one of the very best coaches in the world, who will be able to provide her with a wealth of possibilities? I truly hope you are jesting
Best coach in the world is an exaggeration. Who has he coached besides Rupp. Farah was already world class.
What were the splits in this race?
Martinez has # 2 800 time in the world this year and # 4 in the 1500.
[quote]Montesquieu wrote:
Why would she leave her high school coach for one of the very best coaches in the world, who will be able to provide her with a wealth of possibilities? I truly hope you are jesting.[quote]bronx zooo. wrote:
Really, What makes him a good coach? He has the backing of Nike and he is given the best athletes, all he has to do is not screw them up and he looks good.
I would say there are at least 300 HS coaches out there, maybe more, who would have the exact same success he is having as a coach if they were given the same athletes. (as long as they were willing to live in the grey area).
ship em out wrote:
These HS girls all stagnate. Even the ones that get close to 2 never do anything in college.
How many collegiate runners would give their left arm to "stagnate" at 2:01?
For all of those posting negative feedback re: Cain and her recent run, please reply to this message with your pr. Not a true credibility test, but it will at least be comical to see what comes back...
ummm no Cain is not an 800m runner! For now she is a 1500 runner who can go up to 3k/2mile and down to 800m with splendid results. This is obvious by the fact that she's run several mile/1500 races, one 2 mile, one 3k, and one 800 so far this year. She's gonna be a 1500/5k runner who throws down a sub 2 800m when she feels like it. By the time she's 20 years old 800m is definitely going to be 4th best event behind 1500/mile, 3k/2mile, and 5k. 2:01 is awesome, expect her to finish HS with a 1:59 and that'll be less impressive than her 1500/mile and 3k/2mile records.
I said "one of the very best," not the best. He has coached Kara Goucher to a bronze World medal in the 10000, third in the Boston Marathon (in what is still her PR); Ritz to a AR in the 5000, sixth in the World 10000, bronze in the World Half, third fastest American ever in the marathon; Farah to the best in the world (which is vastly better than one of the world's best); Centro to bronze in the World 1500 (co-coaching him with Andy Powell), and fourth in the Olympic 1500; Treniere Moser to her best 1500 since 2007, and it's still early in the year; Tara Erdmann to a one minute PR in the 10000, and a 20 second PR in the 5000; and now Mary Cain is on her way.
fgjjjh wrote:
Montesquieu wrote:Why would she leave her high school coach for one of the very best coaches in the world, who will be able to provide her with a wealth of possibilities? I truly hope you are jesting
Best coach in the world is an exaggeration. Who has he coached besides Rupp. Farah was already world class.
You haven't the slightest idea what he takes to be a good coach--"all he has to do is not screw them up": gosh, such a simple formula for Olympic Gold and Silver in the 10000. Did every other coach simply screw up his athletes? Were Rupp and Farah that gifted from the outset? If so, why weren't they as successful sooner?
bronx zooo. wrote:
[quote]Montesquieu wrote:
Why would she leave her high school coach for one of the very best coaches in the world, who will be able to provide her with a wealth of possibilities? I truly hope you are jesting.[quote]bronx zooo. wrote:
Really, What makes him a good coach? He has the backing of Nike and he is given the best athletes, all he has to do is not screw them up and he looks good.
I would say there are at least 300 HS coaches out there, maybe more, who would have the exact same success he is having as a coach if they were given the same athletes. (as long as they were willing to live in the grey area).
I think it highly probable she will not stagnate.
I have not seen an American talent like this since Mary Decker.
Like Mary D, Mary Cain simply has incredible speed, and she likes to race.
And I don't think a good relay leg is a sound comparison to an open 800, particularly one against high level competition. Her 2:01 800 is a demonstrably better performance than her relay leg, evidences significant improvement, and makes me think a 4:05 1500 this year is realistic.
I don't understand the sniping about this young woman leaving her high school team. She obviously has unusual talent, and she and her parents did what they thought was a correct decision in a sport, unlike, for example, basketball, it is necessary to play for a power program to be recruited and develop your game for a chance at the pro ranks. I do hope she has a firm commitment to developing academically as well. It will take the pressure off, and give her another means to express herself - something in my own experience supports being happy and well balanced. I wish her well.
Salazar gets a lot of grief and sniping as well. I think one benefit his athletes obtain is, well, given that he destroyed himself by over-training, he is certainly conscious of the hazards of over-training and the associated injury risk.
Sorry, 4:28 mile and 9:38 2-mile are both superior to a 2:01 800.
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An arbitrary judgment. Cain's 2:01.68 is only .18 seconds off the B Standard. Cain's 4:10.77 is 1.77 seconds off the 1500 B standard.
Since there are no "standards" for the mile and 2 mile, why bring that up? In addition, Cain rarely runs the 8; she has run a ton of 1500/miles. Given her experience at these distances, Cain's performance today is at least comparable to what she has done at the 15 and beyond. The mile and 2 mile marks of Cain are at distances rarely run anymore at the high school level, so to break a mark held for more than 30 years means what? How would Mary Cain do in an 880 compared to the high school 880 mark on the books now? It is 2:07.7.
Erdmann was coached by her college coach last year. Her times at the trials were off that training.
She ran okay indoors, but thus far outdoors has a 9:25 3k to her credit under AS.
[quote]Montesquieu wrote:
You haven't the slightest idea what he takes to be a good coach--"all he has to do is not screw them up": gosh, such a simple formula for Olympic Gold and Silver in the 10000. Did every other coach simply screw up his athletes? Were Rupp and Farah that gifted from the outset? If so, why weren't they as successful sooner?[quote]bronx zooo. wrote:
Did they all just screw up their athletes, no. But Salazar is given the best we have and has the most resources of any coach anywhere. Then there is the grey area that he spends some time in. There are lot's of guys out there cheating, can ALSAL compete without cheating? Really?
sayw
Ya'll know you're a moron. 2:02 is earth shattering. Then wake the hell up moron. She just went 2:01 early season (for her), and she's not an 800 runner moron. 2:01 this early for a 1500 runner who's a HS jr. Is earth shattering.
Cain has been more of an 800 runner (but almost as good in the 1500). She qualified for the OT last year only in the 800. As somebody pointed out, she is closer to the WC B standard in the 800 than in the 1500 right now. She is however surely converting to a 1500 runner...
Gchfchf wrote:
Cain has been more of an 800 runner (but almost as good in the 1500). She qualified for the OT last year only in the 800. As somebody pointed out, she is closer to the WC B standard in the 800 than in the 1500 right now. She is however surely converting to a 1500 runner...
They are adjacent events so she can be both. She's either a 800/1500 runner or a 1500/5000 runner. So far she's shown to be the 800 type. There's no such thing as a pure 1500 runner. You're either speed based or endurance based.
If you are either speed based or endurance based, why isn't Lagat and 800/1500 guy? Let along Geb...
A personal record, by far her best in a non-relay 800, about what Mary Decker ran at this age, and good enough to podium or win at the World Youth Championships (in previous years). Her 1500 time is also good for the World Youth Championships, but far off the performances of Zola Budd at this age. (Note well: both Budd and Decker suffered severe stress-related injuries at about this age).
Horst Girth wrote:
If you are either speed based or endurance based, why isn't Lagat and 800/1500 guy? Let along Geb...
What? Geb is clearly endurance based. Who knows about Lagat??? The only non-1500 thing I can recall him doing (in his prime) was NCAA cross country. That combined with his recent 5000m performances would make me guess that he has always been a 1500/5000 type.
i am impressed wrote:
I think it highly probable she will not stagnate.
I have not seen an American talent like this since Mary Decker.
Like Mary D, Mary Cain simply has incredible speed, and she likes to race.
And I don't think a good relay leg is a sound comparison to an open 800, particularly one against high level competition. Her 2:01 800 is a demonstrably better performance than her relay leg, evidences significant improvement, and makes me think a 4:05 1500 this year is realistic.
I don't understand the sniping about this young woman leaving her high school team. She obviously has unusual talent, and she and her parents did what they thought was a correct decision in a sport, unlike, for example, basketball, it is necessary to play for a power program to be recruited and develop your game for a chance at the pro ranks. I do hope she has a firm commitment to developing academically as well. It will take the pressure off, and give her another means to express herself - something in my own experience supports being happy and well balanced. I wish her well.
Salazar gets a lot of grief and sniping as well. I think one benefit his athletes obtain is, well, given that he destroyed himself by over-training, he is certainly conscious of the hazards of over-training and the associated injury risk.
It's not a mind boggling improvement. Any runner at 2:03.74 (albeit a relay split, but it's not really that much of a difference) should be able to improve to 2:01.68 in 2 years. Her former HS coach (Jim Mitchell who is in the coach's hall of fame) was positive that he could have had her to under 2:00 by the end of her sophomore year but she ended up training under the boys' coach.
The problem that people have with her leaving her high school team is that she left because she couldn't play nice with her teammates, not that she wanted to move on in order to improve. Look at Missy Franklin. She is comparably far better than Mary Cain at the same age yet she still competes for her high school team, as she should. Using your own analogy to basketball, most high school players continue competing for their high school teams if the team is good. Bronxville has a great program and Mary would have been fine there.
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