Why don't I improve? Is my body going down? - 800m runner needs help

I posted the thread twice, so there is some info on the duplicate:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5062839

Regarding sample week from when I ran well, thats not going to help you. It was my first year with focus on threshold ever (before that probably too hard on most, but the last year before I started doing threshold I trained crappy (but still ran 2.00, same as last year when I trained like I describe in my first comment).

Sample week from 1.51 year:

M: Threshold 600m-1000m intervals, a bit longer before new years.

T: easy day, very very easy

W: Threshold, 500m intervals. + hard plyo/jumping stairs/a lot of jumping over hurdles

T: Easy day

F: Day off

S: 200ms, e.g: 12 at threshold, 3 faster, something like: 12x200m at 34 + 3x200m at 29-28-26

S: Easy day

Often strides like 3x3x100m in 17-16-15, 16-15-14, 15-14-13 seconds. 1-2 min rest, after thresholds on saturdays.

Thats mostly it.

OK got ya.

Either way, running a schedule like I suggested sounds like it would be something that could work for you. Also on threshhold days, doing up to 8k of work I think is far to much.

As a poster mentioned above, the Lactate system is very powerful and if you shy away from training it, you lose the ability to generate the type that is necessary for you to put the hammer down and hold it down.

Also, to run a fast 8, you need a fast 4. Something else to keep in mind.

'Just a question to the 4/8 pace sessions, how do you suggest do incorporate workouts like that? For example like the 6x200m once a week?'

It's hard to say online but I would go for one longer rep session and one shorter per week

8 x 300m with 100m walk jog rec is a good session.

There is a good 800m thread on here somewhere with lots of gear workouts

Can anyone provide the link?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Just a question to the 4/8 pace sessions, how do you suggest do incorporate workouts like that? For example like the 6x200m once a week?'

It's hard to say online but I would go for one longer rep session and one shorter per week

8 x 300m with 100m walk jog rec is a good session.

There is a good 800m thread on here somewhere with lots of gear workouts

Can anyone provide the link?

Did 8x300m in 51/52, 1.15min rest and 1.30min rest after the 5th.

lactate: 8.mmol

New training plan:

M: 8x800m cut downs, threshold until last two + 4x60m 95% speed, 2min rest

T: 8 miles easy

W:

A) 5x1000m cut downs

B) 6x200m in 27-28s, 3min rest

T: 8 miles easy + 10x100m in 800 pace + weigts: Squats and rumanian dead lifts 5x5x242 pounds + calf raises 5x30 with lighter weights + core

F:

A) 4miles easy + drill + 4 strides

B) 6 miles progressively faster/easy depending on feel + drill + light bounding in hill + 4 strides

S: 8x300m in 1500m pace, 51-52, 1.30 rest

+ 8-10x60m/2min rest, 95%

S: 10 miles easy + weights like thursday

Alternatively:

Thursdag: 8x(2x60m with 30 second rest, about 8 seconds) then 2-3 min rest between sets

And then weights on friday instead

What are your thoughts?

I think it would be more beneficial to have something along the lines of 8x100m on Monday, in 14-15s, with walking back recovery + 60s.

Don't see max sprints as that relevant to 800m.

'Did 8x300m in 51/52, 1.15min rest and 1.30min rest after the 5th.'

That's too slow for someone with your speed

Are you not fully fit or have some illness?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Did 8x300m in 51/52, 1.15min rest and 1.30min rest after the 5th.'

That's too slow for someone with your speed

Are you not fully fit or have some illness?

I did it in 1500m pace.

8x300m in 800m pace with 100m walk seems awfully hard and anaerobic in march, I think you overestimates my capabilities.

I'm fully fit, fairly strong after weights: (5x5x110kg squat and rumanian deadlift).

Did 7x800m today with 1.30 rest, supposed to be at or slightly above threshold, aerobic workout. Failed miserably and got a lactate of 8 again.

Had 9x100m in 13.5 after, 2 min rest.

How are you getting these lactate levels? You are testing track-side?

being able to reach such a high level suggests pretty good lactate power - but maybe your lactic resistance is still poor.

I'd say this a good starting point. Maybe repeat that workout in a week or two. I wouldn't do a session like this more often than once a week. Maybe once every 7-10days.

You pretty much have back to back threshhold days, Monday and Wed. I agree with poster above me. Ditch one of those days and replace with fast relaxed strides at 8 pace. I still think you have too much threshhold work in that program, not enough hurt.

4/8 guys need to run fast, not threshhold fast.

Frustrated,

Reading thru your dilemna made me think of one thing in particular.

I would consider the possibility that your aerobic base has dwindled, and needs to be rebuilt.

You had your 1:51 success, not training as seriously, after a few years of easy training, and following that with faster training. I don't know what exactly "easy training" means, but I assume it means more easy running and less threshold, fast repeats, etc..

Lydiard coached a very successful 800m runner, and had him train aerobically first, then add in the anaerobic workouts. He talks about needing to periodically rebuild the aerobic base.

To clarify, "threshold" training is not aerobic as I'm refering to it. For Lydiard, and what I'm talking about, "aerobic" = marathon pace or slower.

This aerobic training will lay the foundation and improve your threshold.

It seems nearly everyone here is recommending you run faster/harder stuff. I'd try that first, and hopefully it works. If not though, maybe consider this as your plan B.

800m pain train wrote:

How are you getting these lactate levels? You are testing track-side?

being able to reach such a high level suggests pretty good lactate power - but maybe your lactic resistance is still poor.

I'd say this a good starting point. Maybe repeat that workout in a week or two. I wouldn't do a session like this more often than once a week. Maybe once every 7-10days.

I use Lactate Scout Pro:

Yea, and the 17.9 lactate the other day was a new record, and it wasn't even that hard. So I'm clearly able to produce a lot of lactate, but like you say, seems like my resistance is terrible.

The thing is, thats what I focused a lot on between October and January, more than ever before. I was really hoping it would 'crack the code' for me threshold wise, but it really didn't help at all.

Thanks for any advice though, most people I talk with don't really understand how (even with wrong training) I could get times like 2.00 in the 8 and 53 in the 4 considering my previous times.

I'd say continue to work as you have - but gradually fold in more of that lactate tolerance work. I suspect that is the issue, and if so you should see marked performance improvement withing about 8 weeks.

When is your next planned session?

800m pain train wrote:

I'd say continue to work as you have - but gradually fold in more of that lactate tolerance work. I suspect that is the issue, and if so you should see marked performance improvement withing about 8 weeks.

When is your next planned session?

Tomorrow my plan was to try the 5x1000m early in the day, then 6x200m in 800m pace later.

Then next session on saturday.

Though, considering how much lactate I produced on yesterdays workout, I consider doing 2x25x100m, with 4 min rest between sets and 20seconds between each rep.

I've done something similarly previous and just loved it.

- High speed on each 100m

- Not too much lactate

- Heart rate doesn't get enough time to slow down, so its a good aerobic/threshold workout

- Practice 50 accelerations

- Technique much more similar to 800m than what I use in long intervals like 1000meteres.

I really don't think you are understanding what everyone is suggesting. You seem to want to keep doing things that have very short rest and primarily aerobic in nature. Once again, I would put the focus on getting back some top end speed and then start a progression based on lactic tolerance over time.

I am copying the 600m progression for Bungei leading up to the Olympics that was listed in the sub-150 800m thread that has a ton of great advice in it. You will obviously need to adjust the times to your current fitness:

I can't say it any better than this:

But you must not think of the type of workout (that is clearly over the Threshold, and can reach 11 - 13 mmol for a top runner well trained), but of the EFFECT of this training. The question was : what type of training do you use for improving AnT ? The answer is : a lot of run that we can check between 95 and 105 % of the speed of the race.

I want to describe, for example, one type of training that Gianni Ghidini (the current coach of Bungei, Yiampoy and Kamal) and me use with these guys during the last period, having the goal to IMPROVE SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, developing intensity from the Threshold to Specific Endurance.

1) 6 x 600m (rec. 4 min) in 1:28 (60/28) 1:28 (60/28) 1:27 (60/27) 1:27 (60/27) 1:26 (60/26) 1:26 (60/26)

2) (about 10 days later) 5 x 600 (rec. 5 min) in 1:26 (60/26) 1:25 (59/26) 1:25 (59/26) 1:24 (59/25) 1:24 (59/25)

3) (about 10 days later) 4 x 600 (rec. 6 min) in 1:23 (57/26) 1:22 (57/25) 1:21 (57/24) 1:20 (56/24)

4) (about 10 days later, in the case of Bungei 8 days before Zurich) 3 x 600 (rec. 8 min) in 1:19.3 (54.2/25.1) 1:19.5 (54.6/24.9) 1:17.2 (53.0/24.2)

The next workout (before OG) will be 2 x 600 (rec. 10 min) in 1:16 (52/24).

This type of work starts about 2 months before the main event, having the goal of supporting AnT. After the first two sessions, when we test the speed at a level of lactate of 6 mmol, we can find an improvement of about 5-8 sec, per km. After the first two sessions, the focus of this training is the improvement of SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, joined with the capacity of increasing speed in the final of the race. The 5th workout is very specific,lactate reaches a level of 16-18 mmol, but in any case is an evolution of the first workout.

The normal use of groups of short distances increasing the speed every test, is a good way for increasing the AnT in aspecialist of 800 or 1500m. For example, 4 groups of 3 x 300m in 42/40/38 with 2 min recovery (and 5 min between the sets), or 4 groups of 3 x 600min 1:33/1:30/1:27 rec. 2 min and 5min, for specialists of 800 and 1500/3000m respectively, are workouts very good for increasing the AnT.

But what is important to remember, is that every distance needs a specific Aerobic Support, that is not the real AnT. For example, in the case of 3000 SC/5000, we can create a MAX LASS (Maximum Lactate Steady State) of 6/8 min at a level of 11-13 mmol of lactate, and the AnT that we need is the speed at a level of 8 mmol about. So, don`t pay attention at the CONVENTIONAL THRESHOLD of 4 mmol,because is something for physiologists, but really in many case doesn´t mean anything.

I try to write the level of lactate that you must use like AEROBIC SUPPORT for the specific workouts in different events :

800m 8-12 mmol

1500m 7-10

5000m 6-8

10000m 5-7

HM 4-5

Mar 4

Here is the link to the sub-1:50 800m training thread:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2669719&page=0

I get that, but if you read what Oldsub4 and others recommend, you can't completely remove aerobic training from your weekly program. If I remove the aerobic intervals with shorter breaks in march, how do you think my aerobic state will be in June?

What I have experienced as a problem as soon as I start closing in on the season (april/may) and stop doing aerobic intervals, my peaks lasts considerably shorter than if I keep it up.

Are you suggesting to only train speed and lactid acid tolerance from March until August?

Regarding the 600m progression:

"This type of work starts about 2 months before the main event,"

I want my peak to be in Mid-late summer, not in May. Thats why I haven't started the this suggest workout. I'm planning on doing it later. May is the time for exams and the first track meets, I live in Europe.

Regarding this, what does he mean with aerobic support? Is he really suggesting that the longer intervals etc, what I call threshold intervals should really be in the 8-12 mmol range?

I doubt that, but can anyone explain what he means?

Regarding the 50x100m workout, its a workout often used by a 1.45 runner I know, hes had great success with it, and its not an unusal workout for a middle distance runner.

Not trying to sound all 'I know everything' here. I agree that I need harder stuff, but I also think there needs to be balance.

stop working out all-out every other day